Hobbitry, explained by John Cleese

Lincoln Alpern

Lincoln Alpern

Active Member
Okay, I'm being a little facetious with that thread title, as Cleese wasn't specifically referencing Tolkien at all. Still, this observation he makes, in conversation with Iain McGilchrist at a recent How to Academy talk, resonates so much with discussions we've had that I must share it.

If you go back a few years, the English upper class found it very embarrassing to say to someone that "I, uh, really love you, um, you touch me very deeply," because that would have been regarded as [gauche and unseemly]. But, I mean, what they did is they insulted their friends. Because it was the way that the upper class had of telling them that they loved them. Because they would never insult someone that they didn't love, because that would be rude and a breach of good manners, you see.
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If that isn't textbook Hobbitry, I don't know what is.
 
Follow-up thought: Cleese identifies this specifically as an English upper-class phenomenon, and we've already noted how the Hobbit gentry characters - Bilbo, Frodo, Merry, and Pippin - apply Hobbitry differently among themselves and with their social superiors such as Gandalf, Elrond, and Strider, than with lower-class Hobbits such as Sam, and how Sam, likewise, generally refrains from indulging in good-natured insults with them.

Is this also an exclusively upper-class phenomenon among Hobbits as well, or do we see Sam and his fellow lower-class Hobbits employ similar ribbing amongst themselves?
 
John Cleese might have associated this with the English upper class. (Though, it is more likely, from what I know of Cleese, that he is indulging here in a bit of 'hobbitry', and poking fun at the upper class.) In my experience, however, 'banter' ("the playful and friendly exchange of teasing remarks") is practiced and appreciated by all classes in English society, and engaged in to a much greater extent than is common in the USA. Those who do it well ("good banter") are generally admired.

I would be surprised if this was not also true in JRRT's era. I do not, however, know for certain. Any way to find out?
 
This is also true in Australia, which doesn't have such an obvious class distinction as the UK (some say we have none.)
For friends to declare their love for each other generally requires large amounts of alcohol to be consumed; otherwise we engage in 'hobbitry'.

Cleese's explanation still holds for the lower classes: Insulting those who aren't friends is rude, and might start a fight, therefore 'insulting' someone in a good-natured way is actually an expression of affection.
In fact some of the greatest friendship have begun by one person 'insulting' another and the other person not taking offence, but instead responding in kind.
 
Thanks for your perspectives. Cleese premises his observation with "If you go back a few years," which I infer to mean "generations," which would roughly match up with the milieu Tolkien himself grew up in.

Does it seem plausible that this is a custom that was begun by the English upper classes and was then adopted by other sectors of English society, and other parts of the Commonwealth?
 
Hi Lincoln,

I think it is important to remember that John Cleese is a comedian, not an historian.

One of the frequent targets of his humor was the English class system. Now, it may be (though I doubt it) that Cleese was correct, and that 'banter' originated with the upper class. Far more likely, however, was that Cleese thought it was a much funnier story to attribute it to the upper class. I think the way he tells it indicates that he is striving for humor, rather than historical reporting on the etymology of 'banter'.
 
I'm sure you're right that Cleese's main object in that anecdote was humor, and historical accuracy was, at most, a secondary consideration for him.

If we're talking about "banter," that goes at least as far back as Shakespeare and such plays as Much Ado About Nothing, and I would be shocked if it doesn't extend much further.

That said, the particular kind of good-natured sniping we see in Hobbitry, and in Cleese's description, comes off to me more as a specific subset of "banter," which I could believe is a lot more recent in origin.

It also must have started at some point, and disseminated throughout English and other Commonwealth societies to various degrees. All such cultural quirks and institutions have reasons for emerging and propagating when and how they do, and I find the history of that process fascinating.

Cleese's narrative sounds plausible, given what I know of Victorian era English upper class culture. Is it plausible because it's a humorous "just-so" story, or because it's a fairly accurate account of how this particular cultural habit came about? Honestly, I could believe either.


It sounds, from folks' discussion here, as though we could expect Sam and other lower-class Hobbits to engage in Hobbitry just like Frodo and his peers, if it is at all analogous to how the phenomenon appears in places like Great Britain. Can anyone here think of examples from the text - presumably either in Book 1 of *Fellowship* or Book 6 in *Return*?
 
I think that all through the start of the dialogue between Sam Gamgee and Ted Sandyman in the Green Dragon, Ted is trying to banter with Sam.

"You do if you listen (hear queer things). But I can hear fireside-tales and children's stories at home if I want to."

"There's only one Dragon in Bywater, and that's Green."

"Then I bet it wasn't an inch. What he saw was an elm tree, as like as not."

In response to, "and there ain't no elm tree on the North Moors", "Then Hal can't have seen one."

That this is intended as banter (Instead of, or perhaps as well as, contradiction or doubt) is indicated, I think by the 'softening phrases', such as 'I bet', and 'as like as not'. These are intended to be indicators of doubt or banter, avoiding flat contradiction.

I think that Rosie chucks Sam a good bit of Hobbitry in "The Scouring of the Shire" when she says, "Well, be off with you! If you've been looking after Mr. Frodo all this while, what d'you want to leave him for, as soon as things look dangerous?" (Of course, given what Mr. Frodo has been through, this is even more humorous banter than Rosie is aware of.)

The Gaffer seems perfectly inclined to indulge in hobbitry with Sam, "Though I can see he's been mixing in strange company. What's come of his weskit? I don't hold with wearing ironmongery, whether it wears well or no."

The good folk of Bywater, of course, were delighted to call the restored Bagshot Row, 'Sharkey's End'.
 
Yeah, the pub banter definitely feels suitably British. But notably, a pub has a kind of levelling vibe IMO. I do feel people would not banter with Bilbo in quite the same way. Certainly not in his own home. It's why I think of the interactions between Bilbo and Gandalf feel unique. But also, generally speaking, hobbit pubs have a sort of working man's club feel. It's a very specific vibe but you know when you're in one. I bet the Green Dragon is carpeted.
 
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Thanks for the examples, @Flammifer!

I agree with @Rob Harding that all the examples you cite feel like very British forms of humor, and I concur with you that Ted Sandyman's dialogue in his debate with Sam is meant to be bantering, and not just contradiction.

I must point out again, however, that in this thread I'm not discussing either British humor or banter in general, but specifically the kind of affectionate insults Corey refers to as "Hobbitry." For this reason, I find your examples of Rosie and the Gaffer much more salient to my question about such good natured insulting among lower-class Hobbits. To me, they don't feel quite like the examples I'd point to of "quintessentially representative" Hobbitry among Frodo and his class peers, and between them and Gandalf or Elrond, say; but I agree those quotes are suggestive.



Rob Harding said:
I do feel people would not banter with Bilbo in quite the same way. Certainly not in his own home. It's why I think of the interactions between Bilbo and Gandalf feel unique.
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Sort of unique. Although Corey has flagged plenty of examples of Hobbitry between Gandalf and the other Hobbits - especially Pippin, so much between Gandalf and Pippin - or between Bilbo and Elrond. And it seems as though Bilbo, Merry, and Pippin, at least, are happy to include Aragorn in the fun, though he's not very good at responding in kind. Much more readily than they are to engage with Sam, as Corey has also pointed out, which is why I latched onto Cleese's framing of the class dynamics.

There's probably a good paper to be had exploring what it means that the Hobbit gentry are quicker to engage in Hobbitry with social elites of other races than with their social inferiors of their own race (although they may have started with Strider before they learned how important he is among humans).

Take a shot, those of you playing the "Exploring the Lord of the Rings" drinking game.
 
Hi Lincoln,

I agree that the dialogue between Sam and Ted in the pub is a different kind of banter than the sort of affectionate insults directed at personalities, or behaviors.

This type of banter is directed at statements, ideas or concepts, and is meant to either show disagreement or doubt without actually saying so, or, just to redirect the conversation from serious to more lighthearted.

There are probably plenty of other examples of this sort of Hobbitry in TLOTR, perhaps some can find them?

By the way, the Gaffer deserves extra credit for 'good banter'. I love his pun, "Whether it wears well or no." The Gaffer is simultaneously saying that he doesn't "hold with wearing ironmongery" even if it looks good, and/or is extremely durable.
 
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Lincoln Alpern said:
Thanks for the examples, @Flammifer!

I agree with @Rob Harding that all the examples you cite feel like very British forms of humor, and I concur with you that Ted Sandyman's dialogue in his debate with Sam is meant to be bantering, and not just contradiction.

I must point out again, however, that in this thread I'm not discussing either British humor or banter in general, but specifically the kind of affectionate insults Corey refers to as "Hobbitry." For this reason, I find your examples of Rosie and the Gaffer much more salient to my question about such good natured insulting among lower-class Hobbits. To me, they don't feel quite like the examples I'd point to of "quintessentially representative" Hobbitry among Frodo and his class peers, and between them and Gandalf or Elrond, say; but I agree those quotes are suggestive.




Sort of unique. Although Corey has flagged plenty of examples of Hobbitry between Gandalf and the other Hobbits - especially Pippin, so much between Gandalf and Pippin - or between Bilbo and Elrond. And it seems as though Bilbo, Merry, and Pippin, at least, are happy to include Aragorn in the fun, though he's not very good at responding in kind. Much more readily than they are to engage with Sam, as Corey has also pointed out, which is why I latched onto Cleese's framing of the class dynamics.

There's probably a good paper to be had exploring what it means that the Hobbit gentry are quicker to engage in Hobbitry with social elites of other races than with their social inferiors of their own race (although they may have started with Strider before they learned how important he is among humans).

Take a shot, those of you playing the "Exploring the Lord of the Rings" drinking game.
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Sorry, I more meant that Gandalf's interactions with Bilbo feel unique compared to other hobbits interactions with Biblo. But yes, agree with the rest
 
I think it’s important to consider that ‘Hobbitry’ may not be something exclusive to the upper class, but rather may be something common to all classes but not engaged in between classes. This feels more true to my understanding of Victorian society and my experience in the military, which (arguably) held onto Victorian behaviours longer than general society.
 
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