Homework: Why would the Valar not receive the Ring, according to Elrond?

MatthewW

New Member
If Elrond was intuiting this, would he not have been slightly more tentative?
I don't think so, not necessarily. As an intuitive person myself, I often have moments where I am quite confident about my intuitions, even when I can't exactly articulate why. I've learned that certain kinds of intuitions, even when difficult to articulate, are actually based on sub-conscious assimilation of larger patterns that my conscious reasoning can't fully identify. Elrond has had millenia to learn which kinds of intuitions to trust, so I could see him being very confident in those intuitions.

What do you think about the hypothesis that Elrond's Ring was somehow involved in his knowledge that the Valar would not receive the One Ring?
Perhaps, though I don't think his Ring would just give him more knowledge about the Valar directly, like one of the Palantir might. It seems much more likely to me that Elrond's Ring might amplify his existing wisdom and intuition, thus adding to the confidence that he places in his "intuitions."
 

Flammifer

Well-Known Member
Hi Kate,

I think we know that Sauron put his own power into the One Ring. But then he was the maker of it as well as the wearer. He did it so he could command the other Rings. The Ring did not enhance Sauron's power, except in gaining command of the other Rings. (Of course, losing the Ring diminished his power, because he had put part of his power into it.)

Cirdan, Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf were not the makers of the Elven Rings. How could those Rings have worked if they could not add anything to the wearer that was not already there? The Elven smiths of Eregion learned how to put power into Rings from Sauron, AKA Annatar, but I think the power they put into the Three Rings was their own power, not Sauron's.

Now, presumably, the Elven Smiths were all Noldor who had once dwelt in the Blessed Realms. If they were looking within themselves for the power to improve understanding, healing and preserving to insert into the Three, could their ideal of those powers be Valinor, and the source of the power that they put into the Three be their memories of Valinor (of both the Seen and the Unseen aspects of Valinor - as we know via Gandalf, or Glorfindel that those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm have great powers against both)?

If so, could the powers of the Three be fueled by a spiritual connection to the Blessed Realm, and that connection give Elrond a pretty accurate insight into the decisions of the Valar?
 

JJ48

Well-Known Member
Do we know if there is power in Valinor itself apart from the power of the Valar who live there? I don't know if a spiritual connection to Valinor is very meaningful unless by it one means a spiritual connection to the Valar. But then we're back to either reasoning based on good knowledge of the Valar or direct communication from the Valar.
 

Flammifer

Well-Known Member
Hi JJ48,

Good questions. I really don't know. I am not wedded to the theory that Elrond's Ring has something to do with his knowledge of the Valar's response to the Ring showing up on their doorstep. It is just a theory.

But, it is sort of a mystery as to where the Elvish Rings get their power from. If they get power from their wearers, then why wear them? The wearers presumably have the power already? If they get their powers from the Elvish smiths, then, how, and what sort of powers?

That the powers of the Elvish Rings seem similar to conditions in Valinor just seems interesting.

That everyone seems forbidden to talk about the Three, is a possible explanation for why Elrond gives no explanation for his assertion?

It's all just a speculation, without any real evidence. But doesn't it seem like an interesting speculation?
 

Rauþúlfr

New Member
Is it deduction, or is it intuition?
...
Well, I don’t think it is deduction. If it were, then why not take the rest of the council step by step through the logic trail?
...
So, my hypothesis is that Elrond’s assertion about the Valar is based on intuition.
...
Now, what exactly that intuition is, and how it came to Elrond, and how he might try to describe it, I leave to others to tackle.
While we don't see Elrond present evidence for either deduction or intuition, let's consider what it is safe to presume that he does know.
Elrond knows what it took to move the Valar to intercede and bring Morgoth's reign to an end. It took a very special set of circumstances of a child of human & elf, and a Silmaril. Why? Elrond knows that the Valar had basically washed their hands of the place after the rebellion of the Noldor.
After they exiled him to the outer darkness, they went so far as to remake the world. Has he any reason to presume they did this with any intension of direct action to intervene and fix any messes brought about there by the former minions of Morgoth or anyone else? That's doubtful.

Certainly, we have reason to believe that they are to some degree manipulating things so that Bilbo finds the rings. But this is not direct action. Nor is the dream direct action. And there is also the handy intervention of the Eagles. But again, their action is indirect. (After all, no one suggests having a messenger carry the ring on the back of one of the Eagles to Valinor, which would be the most direct way of getting it there, since that would not entail getting the Ring to the Havens safely.)

It seems likely to presume that Elrond can deduce that it would require some particularly outstanding set of circumstances to move the Valar to take the ring, which would constitute a matter of direct action. We know of no prophecy or other lore indicating what those circumstances are. We also know that the One Ring is probably the most tainted artifact on Middle Earth, so in the eyes of the Valar it represents the highest state of unclean. And unclean things do not enter Valinor (giant, evil spiders being a previous exception which they have no doubt taken care to avoid in the intervening years). Consider what happened when the fleet from Númenor landed, and the Valar even more dramatically remade the world.

If it is too evil to enter there, and there is no known way to cause them to intercede directly in the matters of Middle Earth, it seems fair that Elrond would deduce that the Valar would not accept it.
 
Last edited:
Top