Flammifer
Well-Known Member
There are several questions about Elrond’s response to Glorfindel’s suggestion that there are only two possibilities to deal with the Ring. To send it over the Sea, or to destroy it. (Later, two more possibilities will be suggested: to sink it in the Sea; or to wield it against Sauron.)
The first question is, why does Elrond say, “But Gandalf has revealed to us that we cannot destroy it by any craft that we here posses”? Gandalf has not revealed that to the Council. My suggestion is that Frodo actually revealed that second hand to the Council in his account, which was not detailed in the text. But still, I don’t think it was revealed by Gandalf.
The second question is, why does Elrond say, “They who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it”? How the heck does Elrond know that ‘They who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it’?
The third question is, why does no one question him about this? One would think that Glorfindel, who suggested this, and has been over the Sea would know more than Elrond, who has not. But, Elrond’s assertion seems to be taken as gospel by the Council. No one wonders how he knows this.
Glorfindel brings up another suggestion, “Then let us cast it into the deeps.” But no one suggests what seems to me an obvious possibility: “Let’s put it on a boat at the havens and send it to Valinor. If Elrond is right, and the Valar will not receive it, well then, chuck it into the Sea off Valinor. That is presumably outside Middle-earth, on the other end of the straight path. Sauron cannot get there. Maybe he will not be able to access any power from it at all. In which case it would be just as good as destroying it”?
However, that seemingly logical possibility is never mentioned. Elrond is never questioned. The Council just accepts that ‘it is up to us who still dwell here to deal with it’.
This brings up two questions:
What makes Elrond so certain that the Valar would not receive the Ring? (More certain than Glorfindel, who made the suggestion in the first place, and who might be assumed to know more about ‘those over the Sea’ than Elrond.)
Why does no one question Elrond?
Dealing with the second question first: It is easy to see why the Elves do not question Elrond. He is the authority here to them. It is easy to see why Gandalf does not question Elrond. They are in cahoots, and already have a plan in mind. It is harder to see why Gloin, or Boromir, or Sam (except that he is keeping a low profile since he was not even supposed to be there, and also would feel that ‘it is not his place’) would not raise a question along the lines of, “Why would they not receive it? I thought that was their job, to protect and defend the world, especially from evil from those who are not Children of Illuvatar?”
Of course, none of the Counsellors who might question Elrond know that Glorfindel has more knowledge of ‘across the Sea’ than Elrond. Also, we don’t know how much (if anything) those people know about ‘those across the Sea’ or their possible roles in Arda.
So, whether through ignorance, or acceptance, no one questions Elrond’s assertion.
Why does Elrond make the assertion? How does he know?
Well, let’s list the possibilities:
Now, I don’t think we have any direct evidence to support any of the three possibilities. So, we are left to deduce, or speculate ourselves.
The first deduction is that we can combine possibilities 1 and 3. It is unlikely that Elrond would discard a possibly viable plan just because he and Gandalf had previously decided on a different plan. If Elrond and Gandalf have already decided that the best plan is to fix history, rectify the mistake of Isildur, and throw the Ring into Mt. Doom, then the only reason why they would have decided on such a very risky plan must be that they have had some sort of intuition that this is the best course of action. If they are right, then the Valar will also (presumably) have come to this conclusion, and will not receive the Ring. Thus both possibilities 1 and 3 rely on Elrond and Gandalf having come to the same intuition. (I don’t think that either Gandalf or Elrond have figured out yet that destroying the Ring will destroy Sauron and win the war. If they have figured this out, then they are being remarkably obtuse, and puzzlingly secretive, in not informing the rest of the Council.)
So, is Elrond operating on deduction or intuition, or has he had direct communication from the Valar? Well, if he had had direct communication from the Valar, then I think he would tell the Council (though everyone seems exceedingly reluctant to talk directly about the Valar, even obliquely referring to them as ‘They who dwell beyond the Sea’, so maybe not?)
So, let’s come to the hypothesis that Elrond’s assertion comes from deduction or intuition.
Is it deduction, or is it intuition?
Well, I don’t think it is deduction. If it were, then why not take the rest of the council step by step through the logic trail?
This is not my reading of the Council. Real explanations as to why sending the Ring to the Fire is the best course of action are very thin on the ground. Debate or discussion around other potentially viable options is quickly and decisively squelched by either Elrond or Gandalf.
If they had a clear path of deduction, they would explain it clearly. If they have only intuition, they cannot explain it clearly and logically, so they have to bring the Council to agreement through facilitation, chairmanship, and authority, rather than through logic and debate.
So, my hypothesis is that Elrond’s assertion about the Valar is based on intuition.
Now, what exactly that intuition is, and how it came to Elrond, and how he might try to describe it, I leave to others to tackle.
The first question is, why does Elrond say, “But Gandalf has revealed to us that we cannot destroy it by any craft that we here posses”? Gandalf has not revealed that to the Council. My suggestion is that Frodo actually revealed that second hand to the Council in his account, which was not detailed in the text. But still, I don’t think it was revealed by Gandalf.
The second question is, why does Elrond say, “They who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it”? How the heck does Elrond know that ‘They who dwell beyond the Sea would not receive it’?
The third question is, why does no one question him about this? One would think that Glorfindel, who suggested this, and has been over the Sea would know more than Elrond, who has not. But, Elrond’s assertion seems to be taken as gospel by the Council. No one wonders how he knows this.
Glorfindel brings up another suggestion, “Then let us cast it into the deeps.” But no one suggests what seems to me an obvious possibility: “Let’s put it on a boat at the havens and send it to Valinor. If Elrond is right, and the Valar will not receive it, well then, chuck it into the Sea off Valinor. That is presumably outside Middle-earth, on the other end of the straight path. Sauron cannot get there. Maybe he will not be able to access any power from it at all. In which case it would be just as good as destroying it”?
However, that seemingly logical possibility is never mentioned. Elrond is never questioned. The Council just accepts that ‘it is up to us who still dwell here to deal with it’.
This brings up two questions:
What makes Elrond so certain that the Valar would not receive the Ring? (More certain than Glorfindel, who made the suggestion in the first place, and who might be assumed to know more about ‘those over the Sea’ than Elrond.)
Why does no one question Elrond?
Dealing with the second question first: It is easy to see why the Elves do not question Elrond. He is the authority here to them. It is easy to see why Gandalf does not question Elrond. They are in cahoots, and already have a plan in mind. It is harder to see why Gloin, or Boromir, or Sam (except that he is keeping a low profile since he was not even supposed to be there, and also would feel that ‘it is not his place’) would not raise a question along the lines of, “Why would they not receive it? I thought that was their job, to protect and defend the world, especially from evil from those who are not Children of Illuvatar?”
Of course, none of the Counsellors who might question Elrond know that Glorfindel has more knowledge of ‘across the Sea’ than Elrond. Also, we don’t know how much (if anything) those people know about ‘those across the Sea’ or their possible roles in Arda.
So, whether through ignorance, or acceptance, no one questions Elrond’s assertion.
Why does Elrond make the assertion? How does he know?
Well, let’s list the possibilities:
- Elrond does not know that the Valar would not receive the Ring. He just says it to dismiss the idea, and further the plan that he and Gandalf have already decided on.
- Elrond has had some sort of communication from the Valar (via dream or eagle?), “Don’t send the Ring to us. We will not receive it. It is up to you in Middle-earth to solve this problem.”
- Elrond has no direct knowledge that the Valar will not receive the Ring, but he deduces or intuits that this is the case.
Now, I don’t think we have any direct evidence to support any of the three possibilities. So, we are left to deduce, or speculate ourselves.
The first deduction is that we can combine possibilities 1 and 3. It is unlikely that Elrond would discard a possibly viable plan just because he and Gandalf had previously decided on a different plan. If Elrond and Gandalf have already decided that the best plan is to fix history, rectify the mistake of Isildur, and throw the Ring into Mt. Doom, then the only reason why they would have decided on such a very risky plan must be that they have had some sort of intuition that this is the best course of action. If they are right, then the Valar will also (presumably) have come to this conclusion, and will not receive the Ring. Thus both possibilities 1 and 3 rely on Elrond and Gandalf having come to the same intuition. (I don’t think that either Gandalf or Elrond have figured out yet that destroying the Ring will destroy Sauron and win the war. If they have figured this out, then they are being remarkably obtuse, and puzzlingly secretive, in not informing the rest of the Council.)
So, is Elrond operating on deduction or intuition, or has he had direct communication from the Valar? Well, if he had had direct communication from the Valar, then I think he would tell the Council (though everyone seems exceedingly reluctant to talk directly about the Valar, even obliquely referring to them as ‘They who dwell beyond the Sea’, so maybe not?)
So, let’s come to the hypothesis that Elrond’s assertion comes from deduction or intuition.
Is it deduction, or is it intuition?
Well, I don’t think it is deduction. If it were, then why not take the rest of the council step by step through the logic trail?
This is not my reading of the Council. Real explanations as to why sending the Ring to the Fire is the best course of action are very thin on the ground. Debate or discussion around other potentially viable options is quickly and decisively squelched by either Elrond or Gandalf.
If they had a clear path of deduction, they would explain it clearly. If they have only intuition, they cannot explain it clearly and logically, so they have to bring the Council to agreement through facilitation, chairmanship, and authority, rather than through logic and debate.
So, my hypothesis is that Elrond’s assertion about the Valar is based on intuition.
Now, what exactly that intuition is, and how it came to Elrond, and how he might try to describe it, I leave to others to tackle.
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