Homework: Why would the Valar not receive the Ring, according to Elrond?

[MatthewW]

If Elrond was intuiting this, would he not have been slightly more tentative?

I don't think so, not necessarily. As an intuitive person myself, I often have moments where I am quite confident about my intuitions, even when I can't exactly articulate why. I've learned that certain kinds of intuitions, even when difficult to articulate, are actually based on sub-conscious assimilation of larger patterns that my conscious reasoning can't fully identify. Elrond has had millenia to learn which kinds of intuitions to trust, so I could see him being very confident in those intuitions.

What do you think about the hypothesis that Elrond's Ring was somehow involved in his knowledge that the Valar would not receive the One Ring?

Perhaps, though I don't think his Ring would just give him more knowledge about the Valar directly, like one of the Palantir might. It seems much more likely to me that Elrond's Ring might amplify his existing wisdom and intuition, thus adding to the confidence that he places in his "intuitions."

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Kate,

I think we know that Sauron put his own power into the One Ring. But then he was the maker of it as well as the wearer. He did it so he could command the other Rings. The Ring did not enhance Sauron's power, except in gaining command of the other Rings. (Of course, losing the Ring diminished his power, because he had put part of his power into it.)

Cirdan, Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf were not the makers of the Elven Rings. How could those Rings have worked if they could not add anything to the wearer that was not already there? The Elven smiths of Eregion learned how to put power into Rings from Sauron, AKA Annatar, but I think the power they put into the Three Rings was their own power, not Sauron's.

Now, presumably, the Elven Smiths were all Noldor who had once dwelt in the Blessed Realms. If they were looking within themselves for the power to improve understanding, healing and preserving to insert into the Three, could their ideal of those powers be Valinor, and the source of the power that they put into the Three be their memories of Valinor (of both the Seen and the Unseen aspects of Valinor - as we know via Gandalf, or Glorfindel that those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm have great powers against both)?

If so, could the powers of the Three be fueled by a spiritual connection to the Blessed Realm, and that connection give Elrond a pretty accurate insight into the decisions of the Valar?

 

[JJ48]

Do we know if there is power in Valinor itself apart from the power of the Valar who live there? I don't know if a spiritual connection to Valinor is very meaningful unless by it one means a spiritual connection to the Valar. But then we're back to either reasoning based on good knowledge of the Valar or direct communication from the Valar.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi JJ48,

Good questions. I really don't know. I am not wedded to the theory that Elrond's Ring has something to do with his knowledge of the Valar's response to the Ring showing up on their doorstep. It is just a theory.

But, it is sort of a mystery as to where the Elvish Rings get their power from. If they get power from their wearers, then why wear them? The wearers presumably have the power already? If they get their powers from the Elvish smiths, then, how, and what sort of powers?

That the powers of the Elvish Rings seem similar to conditions in Valinor just seems interesting.

That everyone seems forbidden to talk about the Three, is a possible explanation for why Elrond gives no explanation for his assertion?

It's all just a speculation, without any real evidence. But doesn't it seem like an interesting speculation?

 

[Rauþúlfr]

Is it deduction, or is it intuition?
...
Well, I don’t think it is deduction. If it were, then why not take the rest of the council step by step through the logic trail?
...
So, my hypothesis is that Elrond’s assertion about the Valar is based on intuition.
...
Now, what exactly that intuition is, and how it came to Elrond, and how he might try to describe it, I leave to others to tackle.

While we don't see Elrond present evidence for either deduction or intuition, let's consider what it is safe to presume that he does know.
Elrond knows what it took to move the Valar to intercede and bring Morgoth's reign to an end. It took a very special set of circumstances of a child of human & elf, and a Silmaril. Why? Elrond knows that the Valar had basically washed their hands of the place after the rebellion of the Noldor.
After they exiled him to the outer darkness, they went so far as to remake the world. Has he any reason to presume they did this with any intension of direct action to intervene and fix any messes brought about there by the former minions of Morgoth or anyone else? That's doubtful.

Certainly, we have reason to believe that they are to some degree manipulating things so that Bilbo finds the rings. But this is not direct action. Nor is the dream direct action. And there is also the handy intervention of the Eagles. But again, their action is indirect. (After all, no one suggests having a messenger carry the ring on the back of one of the Eagles to Valinor, which would be the most direct way of getting it there, since that would not entail getting the Ring to the Havens safely.)

It seems likely to presume that Elrond can deduce that it would require some particularly outstanding set of circumstances to move the Valar to take the ring, which would constitute a matter of direct action. We know of no prophecy or other lore indicating what those circumstances are. We also know that the One Ring is probably the most tainted artifact on Middle Earth, so in the eyes of the Valar it represents the highest state of unclean. And unclean things do not enter Valinor (giant, evil spiders being a previous exception which they have no doubt taken care to avoid in the intervening years). Consider what happened when the fleet from Númenor landed, and the Valar even more dramatically remade the world.

If it is too evil to enter there, and there is no known way to cause them to intercede directly in the matters of Middle Earth, it seems fair that Elrond would deduce that the Valar would not accept it.

 

[Tollers]

I think part of why they believe that the Ring is a Middle-earth issue and that those in the West would not receive it is simply because the Valar seem to have made it clear that that's how they operate. In the Silmarillion, the Valar start out very active in Middle-earth, and then they withdraw to Valinor before eventually inviting the Elves to live with them. Eventually, they seem to realize that this wasn't the best idea, and they don't do the same thing when Men arrive. However, rather than get more involved in Middle-earth, they get less (at least, directly and obviously). After Numenor's fall, when the world is reshaped, do the Valar directly interact again? The whole thing seems to lead up to the Valar deciding that it's best for the peoples of Middle-earth to work things out, with the Valar operating behind the scenes rather than in the spotlight. The Wise likely realize that, while the Ring is a big deal, it's not yet the sort of thing that would require direct, divine intervention; and therefore the Valar would not receive it.

It just occurred to me, but in a way, this parallels the discussion we were having last night about Sauron and Morgoth. Sauron is travelling down the same path as Morgoth; and as time goes on, he's slipping into much the same style. Could the Valar be doing something similar, but with Eru as their model? We know that Eru is not completely absent from Middle-earth, however he tends to work subtly and through the actions of others rather than getting directly involved (with a couple major exceptions). Perhaps the Valar are, over time, realizing that they need not be absent from Middle-earth, but that their role should be less direct than they sometimes made it in the old days.

Just a quick note to say what a great post this in several ways:
1. Nice and short
2. Sound
3. Textually contained across several works of the legendarium

It was a happy coincidence that I came across this at same time we are reading War of the Jewels. It reminds me of Melian+Maiar protecting Elves from Morgoth (NoME), it reminds me of Orome dwelling alongside them as they journey (NoME), it reminds me of Thingol and Melian_Doriath (Valar + Elves as it should have been - War of Jewels), the Silmarillion reference JJ states about their decision to remove themselves and then to involve themselves less with men, but sort of do with Numenor...(Alkalabeth). The implication for me is that the Elves (with the Rings) are kinda doing what they should have been doing pre-valar, and their rings at present are perhaps not looked at well (but asked to be surrendered in the West with their departure) because the Third Age is not the Age to preserve their time. Their fading starting in the 2nd age is a sign to lean into it not to stall it ( a similar misstep the valar make in protecting the Elves versus supporting them (and Men) as Eru's response to the Discord).

All to say great and simple answer of why Elrond thinks this to be the case.

 

[Makar]

The Valar did not re-shape the world. They laid down their guardship and called on Eru.

And the only one that can work through Fate (concerning the ring and Bilbos finding it) are Eru.
If i recall correctly Tolkien himself even said in a letter that Eru himself intervened and made Gollum fall into the fire at Sammath Naur.