How do the characters talk?

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
the idea in the PJ movies was that Westron is NOT those dwarves native language...
they lived or grew up in different places and so adapted different dialects of westron -represented by english dialects or accents - they never would have used westron among themselves... that´s why the same family talks so different. I actually liked it...

Thori, Fili and Kilui may have talked an old arthadan dialect which was still known in the blue mountains, Dwalin, Balin, Oin, Gloin may have been from the Dunland colony or another area where one of the old languages Tolkien describes as "vaguely celtic in charater" were spoken, Nori hung out with vagabonds and so has adapted a "street slang". You couzld make up similar stories for Dori, Iri and Bofur.

they kind of tried such a thing with the Lotr Movie too but messed it up...

pippin the Took speaks a welsh dialect (because the actor does) and Merr< the Bucklander talks manc, a northern english dialect. It should have been the othefr way round hence Tolkien explicitly stated he based bucklandish and marish hobbits more on celtic heritage in british...
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
considering the edain...

JRRT stated that the Halethian language family was somewhat 'celtic' in character. The Dunlending, Breeish, Enedwaith and old gondor tribal dialects came from that family. Also some hobbit names which are represented by middle welsh in the book come from the dunland area (Meriadoc, Bucca, Saradoc, Gorbadoc...)

The Hadorians and Beorians are a bit more tricky... Those languages, Taliska or Magol/Old Mago
are variously stated to be based on semitic or finno-ugric.

honestly the Beorian dialect has something of anglo-saxon and old grek to it too and we know Adunaic is very hebrew sometimes...

I don´t know how that coukd be solved in a TV series...

I could very well see the Halethrim talk with a scottish or irish accent (not welsh maybe? Because Sindarin is so close to welsh...)
the Beorians could speak with an archaic fake-anglo-saxon dialect maybe, but how incorporate the semitic character of Hadorian without sounding funny?
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I agree an Irish and Scottish accents are good stand-ins for Halethian, Dunlending, Enedwaith, and so forth.

Taliska was originally invented and conceived as the language of both the Halethians and Beorians, because originally the Beorians were related to the Halethians instead of the Hadorians. When Tolkien changed the Beorians to be related to the Hadorians instead, presumably Taliska became only the Halethian language. Beorian must be related to Adunaic, which Taliska is not. The most Halethian words that I know of in later writings appears in The Wanderings of Hurin, but not enough of the earlier Taliska concept has been published yet for me to compare them directly. The plural ending -in is the only thing I know for certain that they share.

The weird thing is that, when English usually represents Elvish languages (in the First Age) it makes sense for Khuzdul and Adunaic accents to be represented with two different Semitic accents. But in the Second and Third Age, when English usually stands in for Westron, it makes sense for people like the Rohirrim and Men of Dale, or the speakers of Beorian-related languages, to speak Germanic languages such as Anglo-Saxon and Frisian and Old Norse. If we continue putting our frame in the Third Age and Fourth Age, setting up a contrast (between Semitic accents = Adunaic speakers, and Germanic languages = Adunaic related languages) would potentially create a clash within a single episode or a single season. So I think it may be better to just pick Germanic accents for the Hadorian, Beorian, Rohirrim, and related people, even during the First Age.

I've never seen the name Magol or Mago. I've seen the names (and nothing else) of Mørk and Hvendi, but AFAIK those languages have not been published. I am really curious what Magol/Mago is and anything you know about it ... whether it has been published yet, who spoke it, when Tolkien created it, what it sounds like... Is it the direct ancestor of Adunaic?
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
JRRT changed the Taliska thing all the time. I disagree that it became Halethian, neither it became Adunaic. It became Beorian... all it´s character is most closely related to JRRTs Ilkorin Tongues. It´s a language that will die out and leave little impact... a minor relative of proto-Adunaic, same family but a bit different. Maybe a bit like Sindarin and Nandorin.

The few Halethian we have are different from the early Taliska. Halethian has a bit of a mix of Anglo-saxon and welsh to it.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Hell you´re right!

still I think the Took should be one who talks posh and the Brandybuck one with a celtic accent..
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
adventurous doesn't mean they don´t speak like snobbish upperclass. I absolutely think they should! they´re the most dandylike hobbits i could imagine..
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
adventurous doesn't mean they don´t speak like snobbish upperclass. I absolutely think they should! they´re the most dandylike hobbits i could imagine..
They're not particularly considered upper-class, from my recollections of The Hobbit. The Bagginses (at least until Bilbo) are seen as more respectable than the Tooks.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
JRRT changed the Taliska thing all the time. I disagree that it became Halethian, neither it became Adunaic. It became Beorian... all it´s character is most closely related to JRRTs Ilkorin Tongues. It´s a language that will die out and leave little impact... a minor relative of proto-Adunaic, same family but a bit different. Maybe a bit like Sindarin and Nandorin.

The few Halethian we have are different from the early Taliska. Halethian has a bit of a mix of Anglo-saxon and welsh to it.
Fascinating! Have you actually had an opportunity to look at the Taliska corpus? Has it been published or are you somebody privileged to see unpublished texts...?

So, if I read you right, you're saying that Taliska resembles LotR-era Adunaic enough to be closely related to it? And it does not resemble the Halethian words from the Wanderings of Hurin?
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
nah ! I wish I was, though I am not a linguist... I knew a bit anglo-saxon, gothic and gaulish out of personal purely historical interest.

As far as I know JRRT was experimenting with those languages at the time...
later as he invented Magol or Hadorian he was obsesses with Finno-Ungric
that was not the case when he first started Taliska and thoutght about the Halethrim and Celtic.

I was referring to it as proto-adunauc because it was historically it´s forerunner... but Adûnaic is semitic in character
that´s not what he hat in mind at the time he started taliska... back then he was into welsh and gothic and other languages.
A lot of the names he later used for taliska goe back way father and are in origin Goldogrin or Ilkorin.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Haerangil I don't understand t all. If none of these languages have been published, how did you read them? I have a list of unpublished Arda linguistic material and nothing I've heard of is named Magol. I am really very curious to learn more. Won't you please tell me where you read it, so I can read more about it?

If the Taliska that was actually invented is not closely related, linguistically, to the Adunaic that was made around the time of the LotR, then it can't be closely related to Adunaic. So if it has any valid existence in Arda, it must be the Halethian language, by default.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
We DO have names after all...

for the second point... it is not relaten WITHIN Tolkiens works... not directly i9n his final version, but is is related in terms of the history of how JRRT built his world and went through different phases with it.

The Vinyar Tengwar People wrote about it, but they do not have the rights to publish Tolkiens Documents from Cristopher Tolkien.

after all...

we don´t need reconstructed Edainic i think. I would be happy if we can make usae of some Neo-Nandorin though.
 
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