Huge if true - Boromir's Dream

amysrevenge

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Looking ahead a few weeks, maybe, but he's the next speaker at the time of writing this post.

To me, the single biggest revelation at the Council, and the one that I doubt the truthfulness of the most, is:

"For on the eve of the sudden assault a dream came to my brother in a troubled sleep; and afterwards a like dream came oft to him again, and once to me."

"...and once to me" is the bit I mean. Is Boromir being 100% honest here? I can see Faramir having this vision all day long. But that Boromir had the vision, even just once, is entirely unexpected to me (and something I've never really thought about before). Did Boromir maybe have a similar but mundane dream just because it was on his mind?

I just am having trouble with Boromir being tossed this prophetic vision once, as if it were out of pity.
 
amysrevenge said:
Looking ahead a few weeks, maybe, but he's the next speaker at the time of writing this post.

To me, the single biggest revelation at the Council, and the one that I doubt the truthfulness of the most, is:

"For on the eve of the sudden assault a dream came to my brother in a troubled sleep; and afterwards a like dream came oft to him again, and once to me."

"...and once to me" is the bit I mean. Is Boromir being 100% honest here? I can see Faramir having this vision all day long. But that Boromir had the vision, even just once, is entirely unexpected to me (and something I've never really thought about before). Did Boromir maybe have a similar but mundane dream just because it was on his mind?

I just am having trouble with Boromir being tossed this prophetic vision once, as if it were out of pity.
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Unless is was something like '(Presumably Ulmo): I've called this number again and again and I keep leaving messages but nothing seems to happen. I'll try his brother's number. Ok, I left a message there too and now I see some action'

More seriously, if Faramir was reluctant to tell Denethor about the dreams, or if Denethor discounted the seriousness of the dreams of Faramir, but Boromir didn't, Boromir may have claimed to have had the same dream to get their dad to listen. If that was the premise by which he was sent by his father he would stick to his story for the sake of consistency.

I agree that some explanation is needed for why Faramir had the dream several times, but Boromir only once, if that is what actually happened.
 
amysrevenge said:
Did Boromir maybe have a similar but mundane dream just because it was on his mind?
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That would indeed be my suspicion.

I have none whatever that Boromir actually lied about it. Not even to his father (though that is a more plausible scenario than any other I can think of!) But he could have been mistaken; having heard his brother recount the dream he might have had a similar, but not necessarily genuine, dream.

But overall, I think I take his story at face value.

I expect we will get into questions like Who sent this dream? How was it targeted? Did the sender give up on Faramir, or did it just spill over to Boromir? I doubt we will have definitive answers to any of them, though!
 
I think what makes me question it the most is that Boromir is emblematic of the sort of ascendant Men who don't receive prophetic visions - he's great, but a different kind of great that is more removed from the previous Ages of the world - how greatness will manifest in the Age of Men to come, while Faramir is emblematic of the sort of declining Men who did receive visions - he's a throwback to great Men of old.
 
I don't think that Boromir lied. He doesn't. Even in the grip of the Ring on Amon Hen, I don't think he lies to Frodo. He does not even delude himself much. (Well, he probably does delude himself [or the Ring deludes him] a few times, like when he says, "I need your Ring: that you know now; but I give you my word that I do not desire to keep it. Will you not at least let me make a trial of my plan? Lend me the Ring?) However, he believes it at the time.

In fact Boromir is pretty much honest and straightforward about his concerns, thoughts and plans throughout this conversation. Crafty subterfuge and deceit might well have served him better in getting the Ring from Frodo. It is not in his nature.

When Aragorn asks him about what transpired between him and Frodo, Boromir does not give a direct answer (He says, "I will say no more yet."), but he does not lie.

If he does not really lie to Frodo about his motivations in trying to get the Ring to Minas Tirith (or to himself), even while under the influence of the Ring, then I don't think he would have lied to anyone about his dream.

That's just not Boromir.
 
I agree that a deliberate lie seems out of character.

But, if Faramir had discussed the dream/vision with his brother, it is quite possible that Boromir 'had it on his mind' and so dreamed it (or something like it), and just accepted that it was the same dream, and the content (as he remembered it) was remarkably like Faramir's description. Because...dreams fade from memory if you don't talk about them or write them down or think about them, so...a discussion with Faramir after his own dream could have cemented the content, even if it wasn't a true/genuine dream Boromir was experiencing.

That being said, I have typically read it as...Faramir received the dream multiple times, but did nothing about it. Boromir received the dream once, and went on a quest. They were both given the opportunity to act, and if Boromir seemed overeager to claim this, maybe even stealing it from his brother...perhaps Faramir was undereager or would have set out too late or reached Rivendell after the Council, etc. So, the dream seems very much to have been Faramir's dream, and it 'should' have been Faramir joining the Fellowship...but instead, oops, they got Boromir.
 
I can think of a couple reasons for Boromir to receive the dream, too.

1. It confirms that the dream is prophetic. Faramir may not not have realized how important the dream was until Boromir also had the dream. Further, Denethor may have dismissed the dream if it were just Faramir's, but he can't do so if both his sons have it.

2. It gives Boromir first-hand knowledge of the dream. Whoever sent the dream could well have known Boromir would ultimately go on the journey (or at least realized it was a possibility). If Boromir didn't have the dream himself, it would have been harder to remember it in sufficient detail. Also, as much as he loves and trusts his brother, it would have been rather easy over such a long journey to start doubting whether Faramir's dream was actually meaningful. Both brothers sharing the dream would help cement it as true prophecy.

So basically, my reasons are that it helps everyone realize it's a prophecy and it helps Boromir fulfill his quest to discover the meaning.
 
Now I’m wondering why, from a storytelling perspective, Boromir was the only one at the Council to be “summoned” by supernatural means, rather than having some (relatively) mundane business at Rivendell. Seems Tolkien could easily have written it such that Denethor sent Boromir to request military aid or intelligence from the elves. Why use a dream message?
 
Ardent Crayon said:
Now I’m wondering why, from a storytelling perspective, Boromir was the only one at the Council to be “summoned” by supernatural means, rather than having some (relatively) mundane business at Rivendell. Seems Tolkien could easily have written it such that Denethor sent Boromir to request military aid or intelligence from the elves. Why use a dream message?
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"But I do not seek allies in war. The might of Elrond is in wisdom not in weapons, it is said. I come to ask for counsel and the unravelling of hard words."

If Gondor just needed allies, they wouldn't have gone to Elrond.

I think much of it is a matter of timing. Frodo is headed to Rivendell because he's being chased. Aragorn is headed to Rivendell because he's helping Frodo. Legolas is headed to Rivendell because Gollum escaped. Gloin and Son are headed to Rivendell because of the sinister messenger. All these events occurred at the proper times to get everyone to Rivendell at the right time.

But what of Gondor? They need to be present as well, and yet they would have little reason to go to Rivendell at this time. So, a prophetic dream is sent to spur them toward Rivendell.
 
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But there’s so many possible reasons to go. What if Sauron’s messenger went to Gondor with a similar message about seeking a halfling in the north? Or maybe marauding orcs stole the sacred MacGuffin of Elendil and Boromir chased them into the Misty Mountains. Point being, Tolkien could’ve invented almost any kind of plot device to get Boromir to the Council, so why did he choose the dream? And why only him? If some higher power really is orchestrating this whole affair, why not send dream invites to all the key players?
 
The messenger going to the dwarves made sense, because Sauron could offer something they wanted (the Dwarven Rings) and wasn't officially their enemy. Also, the dwarves have a personal connection with Bilbo, and know him in addition to knowing what hobbits are. I'm kind of curious how the conversation would go with Gondor.

"Hey, guys! Public Enemy #1 here! Just wondering if you could do me a solid and search the entire North for one particular guy belonging to a race you don't even know about. I'd really appreciate it! Kthxbye!"

The other people don't need dreams because they're already moving in the right direction. Gondor needs something to prod them, so why not a dream? A dream also accomplishes several things.

1. It gives Boromir a reason to seek Imladris and Elrond. We'll see in Lorien that Boromir does not automatically trust elves on sight, and knowingly that he's seeking council from a particular Lore-master probably makes him easier to work with than if he just blundered into the meeting in the course of some other errand.

2. It confirms for Aragorn that this is the proper hour, and helps prepare the line of the Stewards for his coming.

3. It helps Frodo establish himself to Faramir at their meeting. Not only does Frodo know the verse, but the fact that halflings and Imladris are explicitly mentioned in the dream makes the tale more believable than if Frodo and Sam were merely a couple strangers Boromir met and happened to travel with for a time.

To turn the question around, what advantage would a MacGuffin have over the dream?
 
Additionally, the dream not only gives Boromir a reason to be in Rivendell, but at the meeting. The others are there because they are known and trusted or else because their business directly relates to the Ring. If Boromir were only in Rivendell by chance (if "chance" you call it), would there be any reason to invite him to the super-secret meeting to deem the doom of the world?
 
Boromir would need to attend the meeting to learn of Aragorn's lineage--and maybe, to begin to accept what that means. Insulting him by exclusion wouldn't be a good first step. (Nevermind the strategic importance Gondor has. Even if Elrond knows a military victory isn't possible, a military defeat still seems to be.)
 
For the record, I don’t think Boromir lied. I also don’t think he was the first choice of those who were choosing.

It might help if we put some of the others in the Fellowship into a similar context. Gandalf is also implied to be the second string when he says he is Saruman as he should have been. Similarly, it might have been good to send the one Hobbit who can actually give up the One Ring instead of sending the one who carries it further than anyone can reasonably hope.

I suspect part of what Tolkien is showing is that even the best of us make poor choices and that even the less proposer choices can go well after all when others (e.g., Samwise Gamgee) step up and carry the unexpected burdens.
 
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