Was anyone else surprised by Tolkien's use of the phrase 'Hunter's Moon' in the passage discussed in Session 198? I never looked into this before, but from what I understand the name actually originated among the First Nations of North America, so I would expect Tolkien to be reluctant to adopt it. Remembering the 'Of the Sun and the Moon' chapter in The Silmarillion, I did for a moment consider whether Tolkien is appropriating the phrase to refer to the story of Tilion following/hunting Arien, but it seems unlikely.
Hunter's Moon
- Thread starter Anton J
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Odola
Well-Known Member
Hunting and moon were assiociated with each other also in ancient Europe, see the godess of hunting Diana with the moon above her head.
As many hunters did go out at night the moon has been connected to hunting from time immemorial.
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Flammifer
Well-Known Member
The Hunter's Moon is the next moon after the Harvest Moon. The Harvest Moon is the full moon closest to the autumnal equinox. So it occurs at different times in different years. Always in September or October. The Hunter's Moon, being the next full moon always occurs in October or November.
Neither of these names comes from the First Nations of America. The first citiation for 'Hunter's Moon' is in 1710 (according to the Oxford English dictionary) though the name probably long pre-dates that. Although there are many Native American names for different Moons, these two appear to be European.
Just as the Harvest Moon is so called because that is the time to harvest the crops, once the crops are in, it is time to hunt to lay in stores for winter. The animals are fat (getting ready for winter themselves). They will come into the recently harvested fields looking for scraps. The crops are gone, so they can be seen more easily. Time to hunt them. (Still the time for hunting season in many places today.)
Neither of these names comes from the First Nations of America. The first citiation for 'Hunter's Moon' is in 1710 (according to the Oxford English dictionary) though the name probably long pre-dates that. Although there are many Native American names for different Moons, these two appear to be European.
Just as the Harvest Moon is so called because that is the time to harvest the crops, once the crops are in, it is time to hunt to lay in stores for winter. The animals are fat (getting ready for winter themselves). They will come into the recently harvested fields looking for scraps. The crops are gone, so they can be seen more easily. Time to hunt them. (Still the time for hunting season in many places today.)
Thanks, Flammifer, I think you're right. I did a superficial Google search initially, but looking at it more closely I can't find any authoritative sources that confirm a Native American origin. A first citation in 1710 doesn't make it impossible (it being after 1492 and all that), but I do agree that it's unlikely
Anthony Lawther
Well-Known Member
1492 isn’t really the relevant date for judging the likelihood of the term finding its way into English if it had a North American origin. It might have come vía the Norse (after the Norse settlement in Newfoundland circa 1000AD) or a more direct path would need to wait until the early 17th century (at the earliest)
If it had come from North America vía the Spanish (15th and 16th centuries) it would be most likely to have a Spanish form.
I haven’t had time to investigate the claims of ‘several Anglo-Saxon sources’ for the term Hunter’s Moon, but if borne out that would certainly seem to rule out the North American source theory. In no way does that rule out an equivalent term being present in North America prior to contact with Europeans.
If it had come from North America vía the Spanish (15th and 16th centuries) it would be most likely to have a Spanish form.
I haven’t had time to investigate the claims of ‘several Anglo-Saxon sources’ for the term Hunter’s Moon, but if borne out that would certainly seem to rule out the North American source theory. In no way does that rule out an equivalent term being present in North America prior to contact with Europeans.
Flammifer
Well-Known Member
Hi Anthony,
I don't rule out that the term 'Hunter's Moon' might have Native American origins. The Farmer's Almanac opines that it does not. But I'm not sure that is a very good source. timeanddate.com is the source that says that 'Hunter's Moon' is mentioned in several Anglo-Saxon sources, however, it does not give those sources, so I am not sure how reliable that is. If anyone has the Oxford English Dictionary, or the Oxford Dictionary of Etymology, those might be able to give a better source for the term.
I don't rule out that the term 'Hunter's Moon' might have Native American origins. The Farmer's Almanac opines that it does not. But I'm not sure that is a very good source. timeanddate.com is the source that says that 'Hunter's Moon' is mentioned in several Anglo-Saxon sources, however, it does not give those sources, so I am not sure how reliable that is. If anyone has the Oxford English Dictionary, or the Oxford Dictionary of Etymology, those might be able to give a better source for the term.
JJ48
Well-Known Member
This, of course, is always worth keeping in mind. A term like "Hunter's Moon" could easily arise in multiple cultures completely independently for completely different reasons.