"I was delayed...."

Timdalf

Active Member
I posted the initial question on Discord -- Here it is again (revised), for comments:
Timdalf 06/23/2020
The Question of the Day (Session 148 of Exploring LotR) seems to be: Why does Gandalf take so long to figure out "By my pipe smoke, THIS is The One Ring!"

Gandalf's job is to guard against Sauron and he has so far not been recalled by the Valar with "job well done!, G!" Given his ongoing mission, given the disappearance of The One Ring, the ever more evident rise of Sauron, it seems to me he would (or should) test any and every ring he happened on to find out what its powers are... Why doesn't he? Because he is too enthralled with hobbits?... he does not want to think THEY are even remotely a danger.?.. or in danger...? Their Shire is a "resort" for him, somewhere to lay back, have a smoke and relax from his pressing duties...? He doesn't want to even think they are problematic...? Or perhaps there is a twinge of guilt over having embroiled innocent Bilbo and his bucolic Shire in his machinations as much as he did?...

Now, I doubt if we can verify whether this is indeed what Gandalf felt... Why? Because it occurs to me that it is very rare for Tolkien to describe in narration the inner motivations of characters (immediate or long term). In this he is very different from modern novelists. He gives us external objective data... Actions and some immediate thoughts, but very rarely a stream of consciousness (excepting dreams, but then they are treated as external data too, no psychological commentary). This strikes me as more in the style of the old sagas and romances. It is perhaps one reason, now that I think of it, why I always felt uncomfortable when people termed LotR a "novel". And I would venture to say, this reticence (?) is exactly why these analytical sessions of Exploration are so valuable, and this is what makes them possible, in the first place. Am I on to something here, or have I got it all wrong?
 
Some thoughts on why Gandalf takes so long to figure out that Bilbo's ring is the One Ring.

1. It is important to remember that the One Ring is a danger, if re-possessed by Sauron, but not a potential salvation. At the time of the Council of Elrond, there is no assumption that destroying the Ring will destroy Sauron and produce victory. It will just deny Sauron the Ring. So, even if the Ring still exists in Middle-earth, as long as Sauron does not get his hands on it, it is not a threat. (Or, is that true? At some point it becomes clear to Gandalf that the Ring might (will) become a threat if anyone powerful enough gets possession of it. By the time of 'The Shadow of the Past' Gandalf will not take the Ring, suspecting that the Ring could 'gain a power' over him, and he might 'become like the Dark Lord himself'. This is why Gandalf favors destroying the Ring, rather than hiding it or throwing it in the Sea during the Council. But when does Gandalf form this theory, and why?)

2. So, the Shire is a pretty safe place for any ring, even The Ring. No one in the Shire is powerful enough to wield the Ring and become a new Dark Lord. The Shire is protected in the depths of Eriador, by Rivendell guarding the East, Lothlorien guarding the Redhorn pass, Saruman guarding the South, Cirdan guarding the West, Gondor providing a defence against a break-out from Mordor, the Dunedain providing a close guard, by secrecy and the lack of knowledge about the Shire, and by Bilbo, who is a pretty wise, experienced and redoubtable Hobbit. The Shire is perhaps the safest place in Middle Earth to store any dubious rings, so, that reduces pressure to do anything quickly. Whatever that ring of Bilbo's is, it couldn't be in a safer place.

3. As discussed in class, the assumption is that the One Ring has been removed from the playing field by the Valar.

These are perhaps the main reasons why Gandalf shows a lack of urgency in questioning the nature of Bilbo's ring.

Let's look again at the time-line:

2850: Gandalf enters Dol Guldur and discovers that Sauron has risen again. 2851: The White Council meets, considers an attack on Dol Guldur, but decides against it on the council of Saruman. 2941: White Council meets again, attacks Dol Guldur. Sauron withdraws. Bilbo finds Ring under Misty Mountains. 2951: Sauron declares himself openly in Mordor, and begins re-building Barad-Dur. 2953: Last meeting of the White Council. Saruman states that the Ring 'was rolled down the river to the Sea', long ago while Sauron slept. 2954: Mt. Doom bursts into flame again. 3001: Bilbo's farewell party. Frodo becomes Ring-bearer. Gandalf suspects that Frodo's ring might be the One. 3009: Gandalf and Aragorn renew the hunt for Golum. 3017 Gollum is captured by Aragorn. Gandalf reads Isildur's scroll. 3018, April 12: Gandalf reaches Hobbiton, and the next day puts the ring in the fire and determines that it is The Ring.

So, some thoughts on the timeline. If Gandalf had questioned Bilbo's ring when Bilbo first got it, and decided that whether it was the One Ring or not, it was best destroyed in Mt. Doom, the ten years between 2941 and 2951 might have been the time to do it, as Sauron was not yet in Mordor, so the way to Mt. Doom might not have been well defended? But wait! Would that have worked? Mt. Doom had not yet burst into flame again. Can you destroy a ring in a dormant volcano? Once Mt. Doom had become an active furnace, Sauron had been embedded in Mordor for 3 years, building up the defences.

I imagine a conversation between different sections of Gandalf's sub-conscious, which may have repeated several times over the 67 years between Bilbo finding the Ring, and Gandalf knowing that it was The Ring. "I feel uneasy about that ring of Bilbo's." "So? Even if there was any reason to feel uneasy, what could you do about it that would be better than what is? It is secret. It is safe. It is in the safest place in Middle-earth. You have plenty of other more urgent things to worry about!"

More puzzling is Gandalf's lack of urgency once his suspicions grow, after Bibo's farewell party, and then after he knows for sure in April 3018.

However, again, why is there urgency? Remember, that Gandalf does not know that destroying the Ring destroys Sauron. He only knows that Sauron getting the Ring would be a disaster, as Sauron would become irresistible. So, is he going to do anything different if Bilbo's ring turns out to be the One Ring? Keeping it secret and safe in the Shire is a lot less risky than trying to sneak it into Mordor to destroy it. He thinks that The One Ring has been removed from the playing field by the Valar. He probably thinks that Sauron thinks that the One Ring has been removed from the playing field by the Valar (one reason he retreated from Dol-Guldur to Mordor so readily). After Bilbo's party, Gandalf's vague misgivings become active concerns, but one reason that urgency seems to be lacking is that there would be no alternative plan of action if Bilbo's ring happened to be The Ring. The only reason to do anything besides keep that ring secret and safe in the Shire is if Sauron somehow becomes aware that it still exists in Middle-earth, and that it is in the Shire.

Now, if Gandalf thought that destroying The Ring would destroy Sauron, then he might have had a greater sense of urgency. "If I could only find Sauron's Ring, and somehow get it safely cast into Mt. Doom! Sauron would go poof! Mission accomplished! Back to a cosy life in Valinor for me!" But, Gandalf did not have that knowledge, nor that assumption, until sometime after the Council of Elrond.

Gandalf's main fault, I think, comes once he is aware, (generally from Gollum, and urgently from Radagast) that Sauron is aware, and the Nine are on the move. He should not have left Frodo, to go chasing off to Isengard. .Gandalf has avoided discussing Bilbo's ring with Saruman so far, but his reaction of relief and his dash to Isengard on hearing Saruman's invitation relayed by Radagast, strikes me as a bit of hasty panic, upon hearing that the Nine are in Eriador. Collecting Frodo, and hotfooting it out of the Shire, perhaps to hand Frodo off to Aragorn before heading for Isengard, would seem a more thoughtful plan.

In any event, there are some questions in this whole affair? How does Gandalf form the theory that wielding the Ring turns someone into a new Dark Lord. There is no historical evidence that this is so. So Gandalf's possible sources of this theory could be: the studies and speculations of Saruman; his own experience of his own ring; theories and speculations from Elrond, that might have derived from Celebrimbor's ring makers; info from The West?

How and when does Gandalf come to know (or guess) that destroying the Ring will destroy Sauron? He states this at the Meeting of the Captains of the West, after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. He didn't have this assumption at the Council of Elrond. Did this knowledge somehow result from his transformation to Gandalf the White?

To summarize: I think that Gandalf's lack of urgency is generally caused by the fact that as long as Bilbo's ring is secret and safe in the Shire, this is the best possible place for it in Middle -earth. Sure, destroyed, in Mt. Doom would be even safer, but getting there any time after Mt. Doom is an active volcano again is almost insanely risky. It is only after The Ring and The Shire are no longer secret, and no longer safe, that alternative plans have to be urgently considered. This, first lulls Gandalf's misgivings, then, once his vague misgivings have become active concerns, still makes addressing those concerns not particularly urgent.
 
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All good points, Flammiferthrower, (sorry, couldn't resist) ... I won't answer in detail, but the main issue I am raising is not why doesn't Gandalf react more quickly once he knows it is The One Ring -- but why does it take him so long to get to that very point? Once he does, then your points apply. I';; have to go back when I can and review the session as concerns your saying it was concluded that "the assumption is that the Valar" have custody of or disposed the Ring... I need to see the basis for that conclusion. And also there is the question of is there not awareness that Sauron has infused his own being into the Ring, and therefore destroying it will severely weaken (if not destroy) him regardless of whether the problem of his regaining, possessing and wielding it.
 
Hi Timdalf,

Why does Gandalf take so long to get to the point where he knows that Bilbo's ring is the One Ring? Well, partly because he believes Saruman's insinuation that the Valar have taken care of the Ring by burying it in the Sea. Partly because his subconscious is aware that even if Bilbo's ring should happen to be the One Ring, it is safely in the best place it could be in Middle-earth, and discovering it to be the One Ring would change no actions. And partly because there is no way that Gandalf knows how to test whether or not it is the One Ring.

For the assumption that the Valar have taken care of the Ring, see the last 3 or 4 classes. It is based on Saruman's statement that "long ago the Ring was rolled down the river to the Sea", causing the Wise to infer that Saruman was stating that the Valar had taken care of it.

I don't think there is any awareness until after the time of the Council of Elrond that destroying the Ring will weaken or destroy Sauron. See my post on the 'Questions for Narnion' forum called something like 'What will happen if the Ring is cast into Mt. Doom' for detail (and counter arguments). At the Council of Elrond, I think there is no indication that destroying the Ring will weaken or destroy Sauron. All the participants are arguing about is how to deny Sauron the Ring (and, secondarily, how to prevent any other powerful people from wielding the Ring and becoming a new Dark Lord).

I know that many people miss this. I think this is because TLOTR is such a cultural icon these days, that everyone who reads it 'knows' before they read it that destroying the Ring destroys Sauron. However, this is not the perspective of the first-time reader when TLOTR was first published, nor the perspective of the participants in the Council of Elrond. Close reading reveals that it is not until Gandalf addresses the Captains of the West, in their meeting after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, that it is stated that destroying the Ring will 'destroy' Sauron and create victory.
,
By the way, 'Flammifer' means 'flame-bearer' or 'light-bearer', and comes, of course, from Bilbo's Earendil poem, where Earendil is called 'Flammifer of Westernesse'. so 'Flammiferthrower' would mean 'someone who throws the light-bearer', which, I confess, I don't understand. Though, I guess, if one construed Elbereth, through pronouncing the Doom on Earendil, as 'throwing' him into the heavens to wander forever as a star, 'Flammiferthrower' could signify Elbereth Gilthoniel?
 
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Probably the most important point to consider is that the location of the Ring was unknown for around 1000 years before the Istari appeared (arrived) in Middle-Earth.
In the class it was pointed out that Gollum's 60 year old trail was so cold as to make following it an improbable effort.

So at the last meeting of the White Council, as Flammifer has detailed, Saruman made his statement that suggested that someone or something with agency rolled the Ring 'down the river to the Sea.'
Appendix B says this regarding the Istari: 'It was afterwards said that they came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear. They came therefore in the shape of Men. though they were never young and aged only slowly. and they had many powers of mind and hand. '
Combining the fact that they were sent to contest the power of Sauron (not his existence, just his power), and the location of the Ring was at first unknown and then, after nearly 2000 years of study by Saruman, declared out of play I think it is quite reasonable to forgive Gandalf missing the connection for a mere 67 years.

A primary world example of how ideas can take a long time to be overturned:
Ceres was discovered in 1801 and determined to be a planet for around 50 years, until it was reclassified as an asteroid.
Approximately 80 years later Pluto was discovered and determined to be a planet; another 48 years passed and it was found (in 1978) to be significantly smaller than Mercury, and about one fifth of the mass of Earth's Moon, but was still classified as a planet.
In the 1990's (after ~60 years) some astronomers stopped referring to Pluto as a planet, but it took another decade or so for the dwarf planet category to be created to contain Pluto, Ceres, and Eris, and possibly others.
In total it took over 200 years for Ceres to go from planet to dwarf planet via asteroid, or given 20 years per generation of astronomers, 10 generations. This is important as each generation will generally challenge or accept the wisdom of the previous generation.

Back to the Istari, that 2000 year period is less than a lifetime for the major players involved, so there is even less impetus to challenge the held wisdom. This makes 67 years a very short period of time to receive the new information, form a new hypothesis, research evidence for or against the hypothesis, and develop a test of proof. Most of this time (~50 years) seems to be spent in background thought before developing the new hypothesis. The remaining time was spent in research (with Aragorn as research assistant locating Gollum, and looking in the Minas Tirith archives), and the development of the test for proof happened very quickly. Without the A posteriori knowledge we have, I think it is commendable how quickly Gandalf came to this conclusion, essentially on his own and counter to the wisdom put forth by the accepted authority on the matter.
 
Hi Timdalf,

Why does Gandalf take so long to get to the point where he knows that Bilbo's ring is the One Ring? Well, partly because he believes Saruman's insinuation that the Valar have taken care of the Ring by burying it in the Sea. Partly because his subconscious is aware that even if Bilbo's ring should happen to be the One Ring, it is safely in the best place it could be in Middle-earth, and discovering it to be the One Ring would change no actions. And partly because there is no way that Gandalf knows how to test whether or not it is the One Ring.

For the assumption that the Valar have taken care of the Ring, see the last 3 or 4 classes. It is based on Saruman's statement that "long ago the Ring was rolled down the river to the Sea", causing the Wise to infer that Saruman was stating that the Valar had taken care of it.

I don't think there is any awareness until after the time of the Council of Elrond that destroying the Ring will weaken or destroy Sauron. See my post on the 'Questions for Narnion' forum called something like 'What will happen if the Ring is cast into Mt. Doom' for detail (and counter arguments). At the Council of Elrond, I think there is no indication that destroying the Ring will weaken or destroy Sauron. All the participants are arguing about is how to deny Sauron the Ring (and, secondarily, how to prevent any other powerful people from wielding the Ring and becoming a new Dark Lord).

I know that many people miss this. I think this is because TLOTR is such a cultural icon these days, that everyone who reads it 'knows' before they read it that destroying the Ring destroys Sauron. However, this is not the perspective of the first-time reader when TLOTR was first published, nor the perspective of the participants in the Council of Elrond. Close reading reveals that it is not until Gandalf addresses the Captains of the West, in their meeting after the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, that it is stated that destroying the Ring will 'destroy' Sauron and create victory.
,
By the way, 'Flammifer' means 'flame-bearer' or 'light-bearer', and comes, of course, from Bilbo's Earendil poem, where Earendil is called 'Flammifer of Westernesse'. so 'Flammiferthrower' would mean 'someone who throws the light-bearer', which, I confess, I don't understand. Though, I guess, if one construed Elbereth, through pronouncing the Doom on Earendil, as 'throwing' him into the heavens to wander forever as a star, 'Flammiferthrower' could signify Elbereth Gilthoniel?
Yes, Flammifer, I know what the name means and where it comes from. I was just making a very stupid pun on the word flame-thrower... Yes, I am weak of wit and witlessly wearying! call me, Flameout! Sometimes it's not worth paying any attention to my ponderous puns.... ;-)
 
I knew you knew, Timdalf. I just couldn't resist the temptation to connect my nom-de-plume (via your pun) to Elbereth.
 
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