Identification of Borgil as Mars

Jim Deutch said:
The zodiac is high in the south *at midnight* in the winter.

Of course, the zodiac is at its lowest at noon in midwinter (the sun never gets high in the sky). It lifts up from noon to midnight, then falls back low in the sky as midnight progresses towards noon.

What time of day did Frodo see this red star? In early evening or shortly before dawn a planet can, indeed, be low in the south at midwinter.

Think about it this way: a planet can be very low -- just about to set shortly after the sun -- in the south-west; if it's a few hours from setting, it will be still pretty low, and pretty much directly south.
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Hi Jim,

The time of day when Frodo saw Borgil was probably sometime between 10:00 PM and midnight. When they arrived at the Elven camp above Woodhall, there were still lights on in the village. The lights had gone out shortly before red Borgil rose above the mists. I guess closer to 10:00 than to midnight. But I don't know at what hour the residents of Woodhall typically went to bed.

As for the time of year, it was not 'midwinter'. It was, in fact, the 24th of September. Very close to the autumn equinox (which always occurs between September 21 and September 24).
 
Haerangil said:
And where is frodo? Longitude of Oxford, sure, but latitude? Central poland?
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Hi Haerangil,

Why do you think that Frodo's latitude might be 'Central Poland'? I agree that Frodo's latitude might well be that of Central Poland. But that is because the latitude of Central Poland is pretty much exactly the same as the latitude of Oxford, England.

I guess that Hobbiton is probably located about where Oxford is today. When Frodo sees red Borgil, he is not very far from Hobbiton. Woodhall is about 40 miles from Hobbiton. About 30 miles east, and 13 miles south.
 
Flammifer said:
Hi Haerangil,

Why do you think that Frodo's latitude might be 'Central Poland'? I agree that Frodo's latitude might well be that of Central Poland. But that is because the latitude of Central Poland is pretty much exactly the same as the latitude of Oxford, England.

I guess that Hobbiton is probably located about where Oxford is today. When Frodo sees red Borgil, he is not very far from Hobbiton. Woodhall is about 40 miles from Hobbiton. About 30 miles east, and 13 miles south.
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Because this is not the only moment discussed here. The moment is the one in Rivendell when Frodo sees a menacing red star shining in the South. They are far more East there.
"But low in the South one star shone red. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens, burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley."

BTW I always thought Cental Poland would be Mirkwood?
 
Mistaking latitude and longitude sorry. Frodos Latitude is certainly about oxford, longitude in Middle-earth in unclear but in the shaping of middel-earth the coast of Beleriand is congruent with that of Northwest africa so... givennthat Beleriand is somewhat smaller than Eriador a certain longitude might be guessed... Rivendell would be about 1300 miles east of the former Beleriandic coast which is maybe 15/16°. So rivendells longitude could be northwestern germany maybe..
 
Haerangil said:
Rivendell would be about 1300 miles east of the former Beleriandic coast which is maybe 15/16°. So rivendells longitude could be northwestern germany maybe..
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Thought so.

Greetings from a smal piece of scattered remnants of former Mirkwood. ;-)
 
Hmm... internet says if beleriand westcoast was about 51° -15°... 1300 miles east would be 51°,15° Višňová u Frýdlantu, northernmost Tchechia, close to polands southwestern border.
 
Haerangil said:
Hmm... internet says if beleriand westcoast was about 51° -15°... 1300 miles east would be 51°,15° Višňová u Frýdlantu, northernmost Tchechia, close to polands southwestern border.
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Are you claiming I sit in Goblintown or at the bottom of the Anduin (forests of "Puszcza Bydgoska" formerly "[der] Königliche Bromberger Forst"- sorry, has no historic English name )?
 
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It could be... the distance between westcoast beleriand and Imladris is actually rather about 2800 miles according to some maps... if i am right and westcoast beleriand is about -17° ...
 
Haerangil said:
It could be... the distance between westcoast beleriand and Imladris is actually rather about 2800 miles according to some maps... if i am right and westcoast beleriand is about -17° ...
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According to Lotr text the journey from the Woodhall to Grey Havens takes around 8 days (for a group involving mortals on hourses/ carts, assuming those animals have to rest for the night - not speaking of elves on foot who can assumingly wander several nights through).
 
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I still think from imladris to the Ered Luin it is about 690 miles and from Ered Luin to westcoadt Beleriand about the same , so 1380 miles as a whole ca..It does make sense to seek Beleriands westcoast west of Ireland and Katar is about -17°.If Beleriands westcoast is about the same longitude... 2400 km east is ca. 51°, 15°. Round world of course, not flatworld... arrrgh!
 
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Haerangil said:
I still think from imladris to the Ered Luin it is about 690 miles and from Ered Luin to westcoadt Beleriand about the same , so 1380 miles as a whole ca..It does make sense to seek Beleriands westcoast west of Ireland and Katar is about -17°.If Beleriands westcoast is about the same longitude... 2400 km east is ca. 51°, 15°. Round world of course, not flatworld... arrrgh!
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Hi Haerangil,

According to the original map, published in the end papers of the original hard-cover editions, it is 520 miles from Imladris to the Havens, not 690 miles. The scale is taken from the distance between the Brandywine Bridge and Hobbiton which is said to be 'a good 40 miles' in 'The Scouring of the Shire'.
 
Odola said:
Because this is not the only moment discussed here. The moment is the one in Rivendell when Frodo sees a menacing red star shining in the South. They are far more East there.
"But low in the South one star shone red. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens, burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley."

BTW I always thought Cental Poland would be Mirkwood?
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Hi Odola,

From Hobbiton to Rivendell is 320 miles. Rivendell is at almost the same latitude as Hobbiton (maybe 15 miles more to the north). If Hobbiton is in the same location as Oxford, that would put Rivendell right on the border between Germany and the Netherlands. From Rivendell to the western edge of Mirkwood is 150 miles. To the eastern edge of Mirkwood is 290 miles. So, if Hobbiton is in the location of Oxford, Mirkwood is in Germany. The eastern edge of Mirkwood (due east from Rivendell) would be about 55 miles due south of Berlin.

All distances measured off the original map pasted inside the back covers of the early hardback editions. The scale is taken from the distance between the Brandywine Bridge and Hobbiton, stated in 'The Scouring of the Shire' to be 'a good 40 miles'.
 
Haerangil said:
Mistaking latitude and longitude sorry. Frodos Latitude is certainly about oxford, longitude in Middle-earth in unclear but in the shaping of middel-earth the coast of Beleriand is congruent with that of Northwest africa so... givennthat Beleriand is somewhat smaller than Eriador a certain longitude might be guessed... Rivendell would be about 1300 miles east of the former Beleriandic coast which is maybe 15/16°. So rivendells longitude could be northwestern germany maybe..
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Hi Haerangil,

Much more congruent with the coast of Northwest Africa is the coast of Harad. If Hobbiton was where Oxford now is, then you are correct that Rivendell would be in northwestern Germany (or maybe southeastern Netherlands). It should be very close to the border, but probably just into Germany.
 
Haerangil said:
1040 miles then from , say cape andras to Imladris? Ca 51° 7° then... cologne, germany...
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Hi Haerangil,

Close to Cologne, but I put Rivendell further north, and a bit further west. More or less halfway in between Dusseldorf and Amsterdam. Close to the Netherlands city of Nijmegen, but probably just across the border into Germany.

By the way, that is a pretty rough bit of mapping by me. Someone with better maps of Europe could probably pin down the location of Rivendell (if Hobbiton is at Oxford) more accurately.
 
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Well at last the latitude is mentioned by JRRT, same as Oxford so 51°.Longitude is a VERY rough estimation it could easy be 350 miles further west.Then Rivendell would be indeed almost exactly Oxford to which i am tending more and more..
Meaning Frodos position in Green Hill country would maybe correspond to some place in the atlantic ocean south of Ireland!
 
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Hi Haerangil,

I think it more likely that Hobbiton would be at the location of Oxford than that Rivendell would be. The other candidate for the location of Hobbiton would be Sarehole, where JRRT grew up. That is about 55 miles northwest of Oxford.
 
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