Iluvatar and the Valar's Melodies

G.WilsonU2

New Member
Hello, In the latest Silmfilm session , Corey assigned the musicians to try and come up with some music for the Valar and Iluvatar himself. I hope to use this thread as a place for discussion for the style of these character's melodies and even posting of music if anyone has come up with any.

As Timdalf (and im sure many others) has said in other threads, we don't want to rush into this. We need a firm foundation to build up from.

A simple melody is often the first step in composing and often born in the mind of one person. But i do think we would want the assigning of particular melodies to be a group decision. Interpretation of character and music differs widely.

My idea for Nienna's theme is that it might feel very sorrowful ,minor and probably largo. While Tulkas would be quite upbeat and major. Ulmo's melody would be pulsating and be able to change key subtly and smoothly. However is would still have a firm root on a particular note.

That's just some of my still developing thoughts on the subject. What are your ideas ?
 
I think Aule's theme needs to be like him: firm yet subtle. After all, he's a being of stone and metal and force still capable of creating living beings, of a sort. Not sure whether major or minor but I'm hearing solid, low notes with subtle key changes and accidentals, not too fast or obtrusive. Varda's should grow and develop, rising like a growing tree, gradually sprouting more little ostinatos. And I think you're dead on about Ulmo: pulsating, shifting like the waves, uncertain but firm and deep.
 
Unique themes for every character may not be the answer either. For one, the sheer number required would be an incredibly difficult task to compose and two, how many people could actually keep track of all of them? There could be themes for certain ideas or concepts. Each Vala's "theme" could embody the idea of the trait he/she excels in and that theme could be applied to nearly any part of the story where that idea is relevant to the story. For example, a sweeping, rolling theme in 6/8 for the sea could be applied to Ulmo (Lord of Waters), his "servant" Maia, elves like the Teleri, and the sea itself (of course, variations for different characters could exist).

My point is, themes for every Vala would get complicated, confusing and too complex. Instead, perhaps themes for certain ideas could be used for multiple purposes and/or only distinct instruments could be used to represent certain characters (e.g. a horn could be used for Orome).
 
I wrote in another thread about the music of the movies relating themes to cultures. I think what Andrew says is important and too many themes will become too complicated. I do feel that one theme for each of the Valar will be important because these thems will then be able to continue with the trait or the peoples who hold that trait dear. For instance Varda's theme could become the music of starlight and then a variation of that theme could be for the Sindar and the Avari, the elves who love starlight. Manwe's theme becomes the theme used for Thorondor and the eagles (maybe a variation on Nature's Reclamation). Ulmo's theme is of the seas and the Maiar Osse and Uinen which permeates the Tuor story even appearing at the pool if Ivrin in Turin's story and features heavily in the Earendil story in a tumultuous way as he battles the seas to reach Valinor. The music of the Valar should be the basis of the whole musical score.

I have an idea for Iluvatar. Simplicity is the best. I quote "There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Iluvatar"
Iluvatar's theme is one note, held long, high and light as he is the One. Other instrumentation can work around this, but basically just one pure note.
 
Ooo, yes. Taking some of the most complex ideas at the beginning of the Ainulindale and using simple ideas is really appealing. But, perhaps the one note could be a chord that sets the tone for the rest of the music? The idea becomes even more interesting when you pair that with Tolkien's Catholic worldview and realize a popular analogy for the Christian idea of the Trinity is a simple triad chord (it's not a perfect example, but I think it's better than most).
 
This is a good idea, and I think I agree that the Valar do all need their own themes at least to some extent. However, they needn't be incredibly different: remember that each of the Valar makes a part of the Music, so each of their themes could be a part of that greater music. I also think that because of how characteristic these themes would be, it wouldn't be as hard as it might seem to keep track of them. I'm not saying we go ahead and write completely different themes for each character, though!

As for Ulmo, I was thinking his theme should be in a consistent time, like waves lapping, but an unusual one as the sea is unpredictable. Maybe 7/4? It would be good to try to get his Ulumori (not sure if spelt correctly) sounding in there, perhaps.

And finally I really do like the idea of having Iluvatar have a single note for a theme. That would make it really easy to identify where his presence appears, which was an issue discussed on the show. Then the rest of the Music could work around that note in different keys so that it stays the same note but always seems to change: major, minor, harmonic, even a little discordant at times. Eru is the One, and his nature never changes; all else comes from and exists around him.
 
I respectfully disagree about 7/4. The sea is one of the few things in Middle-earth that remains steady throughout its history. Music for the sea has often been depicted in 6/8 time (most notably in Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade) because of its naturally rolling feel (like the waves). Whenever the sea does become unpredictable there are other ways to portray that - perhaps the theme could even be put in a different time signature. But, I personally think 6/8 would be perfectly suitable for Ulmo and the sea.
 
Good points there; rolling is definitely the word that should characterise Ulmo's theme, along with perhaps pulsing. I'm thinking now, with the thoughts of scale-changing Valar, that there might have to be subtle variations on each of their themes depending on how big they are/ what they're doing at the time.
 
With the music for scale changing Valar. I don't think we need to alter their themes too much. If you want to make the music sound bigger than that can be done via adding octaves and basses with new instruments. If you want it to sound simpler, just cut out some of the other layers. We can alter the theme a little bit. But only enough to make the right harmonized changes. I don't think it needs to be done to much or it becomes to confusing.

I really like the idea of Iluvatar being just one note. That is symbolically really cool. (It also means one less melody to compose haha) Im just wondering if that could get too droning. I guess it depends on what instrument plays it , how long it's played and what note is played. Other than that, I think that could set up quite a lot of room for interesting layers in the music.
 
With the music for scale changing Valar. I don't think we need to alter their themes too much. If you want to make the music sound bigger than that can be done via adding octaves and basses with new instruments. If you want it to sound simpler, just cut out some of the other layers. We can alter the theme a little bit. But only enough to make the right harmonized changes. I don't think it needs to be done to much or it becomes to confusing.

I really like the idea of Iluvatar being just one note. That is symbolically really cool. (It also means one less melody to compose haha) Im just wondering if that could get too droning. I guess it depends on what instrument plays it , how long it's played and what note is played. Other than that, I think that could set up quite a lot of room for interesting layers in the music.
Oh yeah, I should probably have been a bit clearer - I'm not suggesting actually changing the themes, that would be way too much. We're already talking a lot of themes here, even if they are all derived somehow from the Great Music. I think stuff like extra octaves would do just fine.
 
I've spent time on the Great Music and what not, and tried to do themes for specific characters. Some of my work is below at this link. My composition "The Music of the Ainur" is quite abridged, but I wanted to get a cd out, so it is what it is.

The idea of deriving different ideas from within the Great Music makes things infinitely simpler, IMO.

https://silmarillionsymphony.bandcamp.com/album/the-silmarillion-symphony-ep-1-the-deeps-of-time

I know I'm late to the party, but I am so glad to have found this project.
 
I think having Iluvatar's theme be one note is brilliant, and a great example of how this could work is Wagner's Prelude to Das Rheingold, which starts with a single sustained note and gradually builds off of that one note.
(Turn it up REALLY loud at the beginning.)
Also, Aaron, that music is great!
 
Let's continue our discussion in specifics about Iluvatar's theme over on - MUSIC - SEASON 1. There is a new thread there. Let's also start individual threads for each of the Valar's themes there.
 
Not a musical expert, but this video, released this morning, really demonstrates a lot about what can be done!

 
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