In response to the Host's challenge in Episode 0-2 : How to visually depict the Valar

"but I think we can all blame Poseidon, King Trident,and John Howe and Ted Nasmith's art for us all imagining Ulmo having a Trident."

I like Ted Nasmith's art, but I'm glad to see other people having a take on it. This can be an ENTIRELY different conversation, but I feel like once one "look" has been codified by the fans, any other artwork or representation of the characters, that shows them differently, is often passed by.
 
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Two of the better Manwe doodles I've been drawing in between work. The top one is more Valequenta, whereas the bottom is him after the elves arrive in Valinor.
 
I really like this idea as a way of showing just how much of a different level these things are on. I was thinking maybe they could even be filmed at a different frame rate (see Quicksilver in Days of Future Past) or have some sort of colour shift applied, just to keep a constant visual difference.
There's a sequence in LOTR:TT where Theoden is being dressed in his armor that Jackson FILMED in slow-motion, then had the actors dub their lines to match the slower lip movements. It creates a slightly peculiar, dreamlike atmosphere that it's hard to pin down exactly what's wrong.
 
Hello there,
I am up to date on the podcast, but not on the live broadcasts, so forgive me if I have missed anything.
I have drawn up a rough costume sketch of Manwe (post elf-contact) based on Bre's drawings. The one concern I have is that the head-piece looks a lot like an aboriginal War Bonnet, and I am worried about cultural appropriation in this case. Did I mis-interpret your doodle Bre? Maybe we can think of a way to incorporate feathers around the head/face that are attached to a crown, as opposed to a hood, there are a few good ones in the collection of images that Bre posted originally.

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I was thinking that we could have some effects added to the costume so that the edges of the cloth become whispy and uncertain, as though the fabric were made from the wind. In stillness the edges could be more certain, but as he moves they could trail behind him. I am not sure how or even if this could be done, it may be a question for the VFX department.

Also, please forgive my poor drawing skills, I do much better with fabric and pattern pieces than I do with pencil and paper...

What do you think?
 
Hello there,
I am up to date on the podcast, but not on the live broadcasts, so forgive me if I have missed anything.
I have drawn up a rough costume sketch of Manwe (post elf-contact) based on Bre's drawings. The one concern I have is that the head-piece looks a lot like an aboriginal War Bonnet, and I am worried about cultural appropriation in this case. Did I mis-interpret your doodle Bre? Maybe we can think of a way to incorporate feathers around the head/face that are attached to a crown, as opposed to a hood, there are a few good ones in the collection of images that Bre posted originally.

Yeah I'm always worried about the cultural appropriation thing. I usually just draw what I can think of even if it does more than a bit of appropriating and just keep drawing more variations on top of that until it's original enough that it not longer is inappropriate.

In the case of Manwe, I was definitely basing his feathered hood off of traditional Native American headdresses, so you interpreted correctly. I could try drawing some variations and try out some other ideas for a feathered head-pieces if you want.

I'm no expert in actual clothing construction, but would layering semi-transparent clothes, which range from white to blue in color, over each other to create a gradient achieve that wispy-smokey effect?
 
I think you would sidestep the comparisons if you backed the feathers away from the head piece and have his hair sort of give way into feathers. little by little.

I wanted to bring up the possibility of visual effects being applied to the actors, especially in the earliest episodes before they descend into Arda. I was thinking it might be kind of interesting to maybe rotoscope the actors, giving them a more cel-shaded look when they're either in the Houses of the Ainur or the Void. One of the things I would really like to do with such an effect would be to associate each Valar with a specific color that would then be carried over into their more "real" representations after their descent into Arda. I feel like using very iconic colors would help give both the costuming and the effects teams more freedom to show more variation to drive home the differences between pre-Arda, post-Descent, and finally post-Awakening, such that even if the silhouettes are different, we've already been trained to recognize the color palette.
 
Some doodles I've been working on... I'll eventually get to doodling more full body costuming ideas.

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The first ones were looking too plant-like (more Yavanna's territory), so I went and looked at the way certain birds raise and lower their head plumage before doing the transformation studies where his feathers slowly recede into hair.

P.S. I'm remembering why I went ahead and originally drew Manwe with a very Native American style headdress despite my misgivings about potential cultural appropriation. It's because I've been drawing Manwe as someone who ethnically looks like a Native American (certainly in the case of a film, played by an actor who is Native American). However, that design has issues for just copying some pre-existing thing in out world rather than being more original; though who am I to say that the Native Americans of the First Age weren't influenced by Manwe?
 
Not a costume expert, but to have some input on the interpretation of certain Native American cultures:

Many Native American people groups have a concept of a 'Sky Father', which sounds very Manwe to me, as does the concept of the 'Thunderbird' which you find in the US southwest. Quetzacoatlus (as far as I know, the largest creature ever known to fly), is named after an Aztec god, described as a flying feathered serpent.

This is just skimming the surface of Native American reverence for the sky, eagles in particular. I feel that making a subtle cultural reference to them is apropos, especially if done so in a respectful manner.
 
And, just for humor value, what if the Valar were designed by Rankin/Bass?



 
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And, just for humor value, what if the Valar were designed by Rankin/Bass?

I actually think about that one quite a bit when I work on these designs. I've never actually seen the film, but I remember coming across it for the first time two or three years ago and instantly being interested because of all the pagan god designs goodness. It's not the direction I'd go for Tolkien, but it's still pretty cool looking for its day; I need to sit down and watch the whole thing one of these days.
 
Oh really? That's cool! I saw it many times as a child, and yes, it's a rather odd pagan origin story for Santa Claus, essentially, based on the story by L. Frank Baum. I would say it's worth watching, if you get the chance. I agree that certain aspects of it wouldn't work for Tolkien's world (most specifically the traditional fairies with antennas), but.....

The Great Ak, the Woodsman who is clearly the leader of the group, has antlers - which could work for Orome, either antlers or horns of some sort. He also has a blue jewel on his forehead, which would work better for Manwë.
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And the Wind Lord clearly has a dark look to him, and yet is also just as clearly one of the good guys. Towards the end, he has a line, "Your story has touched even my cold and windy heart," which is...pretty much Mandos when faced with the dilemma of Beren and Luthien.
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Also like the Silmarillion, immortality vs mortality is an important theme in this story. So, some parts fit....


...but I have no real desire to see a Rankin/Bass stop-motion Silmarillion, either!
 
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Oh really? That's cool! I saw it many times as a child, and yes, it's a rather odd pagan origin story for Santa Claus, essentially, based on the story by L. Frank Baum. I would say it's worth watching, if you get the chance.

I think a lot of people haven't seen this one. It never aired on TV much (I only saw about a minute of it a few years back on TV and never ran into again), and even though I had VHS tapes of all their xmas specials growing up, this one just wasn't as well marketed/branded. I mean, you still see them making money off Rudolph products every year, but you never see anything for this. I'll try to finally sit down and watch it this year though.
 
There's nothing "odd" about a pagan origin story for Santa Claus, the majority of what everyone knows about the character wasn't associated with the historical Nikolaos of Myra until fairly recently.
 
Have you seen 'The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus' or read the L. Frank Baum book? It's...odd. Or weird. Or different. Or whatever you'd want to call it. He's raised by immortals who live in an enchanted forest, and when he grows up and is sent off into the mortal world, he is introduced to human cruelty. He meets an orphan and starts making toys, but there are ogre creatures who don't want anyone to be happy, so they steel the toys. The immortals and the ogres fight a battle...and then Santa Claus happens...and in the end they grant him the mantle of immortality so he won't die like all the other humans.

And there is singing.
 
It is quite odd, but fun. At least in my opinion. And it brings to mind the rather large persona that is Father Christmas in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, so far removed from the jolly, red-faced fat guy that is the modern, American version of Santa Claus.

Though I have to disagree on one of the above points. While I would not like to have a 'claymation' version of the Silmarillion be definitive, I can imagine it being quite enjoyable on some levels. At least they're not afraid to scare you.
 
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