Is Aragorn going forth to die in battle?

Rachel Port

Well-Known Member
In the last class, Corey says that Aragorn is not setting out to claim his kingship, but self-sacrificially to die as Elendil died in defeating Sauron. This bothered me. Aragorn is setting out, putting everything including his life on the line to defeat Sauron in order to have the right to the kingship. He's not sacrificing himself, but he has to risk everything to earn his kingship and his bride. Death in battle is always a possibility. Frodo's quest is almost certain to bring death, and is really a self-sacrifice. Aragorn's is not.

I think it's an important difference in understanding Aragorn, but also because we have one (and another possible) heroic but suicidal setting out later. Eowyn is in a deep depression, and so is Faramir, as Gandalf recognizes when he warns Faramir not so seek death. And both come very close to dying. I think that's why I so love the story of their healing each other. I imagine that when Eowyn is brought to Faramir he has just learned the story of Denethor's madness, or learns of it soon after. But that's another story (though I might as well get my two cents in now since I am not likely to be around when we get to it).
 
I think that Aragorn is prepared to self-sacrificially die if that should contribute to defeating Sauron. But I don't think he is 'setting out to do so'. His name is Estel. He hopes that the West will emerge victorious, and that he will become King, marry Arwen, and live happily for a long time, but not ever after.
 
I agree that he is not going out seeking death in a reckless self-destructive way like Eowyn, but at the same time I think his attitude can be captured by a lyric fragment from The Power and the Passion, a song by Midnight Oil "It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees".
So, he will fight Sauron to the bitter end, rather than submit and be handed his crown as a vassal of Sauron.

Given the apparent hopelessness of the company's quest, and even the approach by the Host of the West on the Morannon, this could be seen as self-sacrificial death seeking, until the eucatastrophe occurs and the path to the Kingship is cleared.

All it would take is for Providence to fail to use Gollum as its instrument, and Sauron could sweep up Frodo, reclaim his Ring, and sweep the Host of the West aside in the process. Providence could then use other means to defeat Sauron, while losing Aragorn in the process.

Aragorn cannot know that things will turn out to his benefit, there seems to be no justification for Amdir that Aragorn will succeed and become King, and Estel could still deliver Sauron's defeat without Aragorn's survival.
Only in retrospect are we really able to correctly differentiate between Aragorn and Frodo's approaches.
 
I think the key is in the words "only Elrond knew fully what this hour meant to him." While I'm sure every Chieftain of the Dúnedain dreamed of reuniting the two kingdoms, from the age of 20 Aragorn has known not only the full prophetic import of his birth, but also that he's going to have to become extraordinary before his foster-father smiles on his love for Arwen. He knows full well that he is in a Beren position, facing a task that seems as hopeless as his ancestor's. But he is also Estel -- and although his mother no longer had the spirit to face the war she knew was coming, she had given her hope to him, and "hope dwelt ever in the depths of his heart." I expect that he is thinking of both his mother and Arwen, glad that the one could no longer be harmed if things went ill, and determined to at the very least buy the other enough time to escape to the West.
 
Only in retrospect are we really able to correctly differentiate between Aragorn and Frodo's approaches.

I don't quite understand what you mean by approaches. Frodo and Aragorn leaving Rivendell are going on very different quests. Frodo is going into Mordor itself, if he gets that far, and will have to climb Mt. Doom to destroy the Ring. The likelihood of survival is almost zero, whether he succeeds or not. Aragorn is going into battle against Sauron and defense of Minas Tirith. He is risking his life, as all who go into battle do, but there certainly is more chance of his surviving than of Frodo surviving.

By the way, I don't think Providence brought Gollum to fulfill the destruction of the Ring, except by having Bilbo find the Ring in the first place. Gollum is there because of the mercy of Bilbo, and mainly the mercy and advocacy (with Faramir) of Frodo, and finally of Sam's mercy on Mt. Doom itself. Without the essential goodness of those three hobbits, Sauron would have won.
 
I don't quite understand what you mean by approaches. Frodo and Aragorn leaving Rivendell are going on very different quests. Frodo is going into Mordor itself, if he gets that far, and will have to climb Mt. Doom to destroy the Ring. The likelihood of survival is almost zero, whether he succeeds or not. Aragorn is going into battle against Sauron and defense of Minas Tirith. He is risking his life, as all who go into battle do, but there certainly is more chance of his surviving than of Frodo surviving.

By the way, I don't think Providence brought Gollum to fulfill the destruction of the Ring, except by having Bilbo find the Ring in the first place. Gollum is there because of the mercy of Bilbo, and mainly the mercy and advocacy (with Faramir) of Frodo, and finally of Sam's mercy on Mt. Doom itself. Without the essential goodness of those three hobbits, Sauron would have won.

If you view them in those terms I can understand your interpretation, but I think that is too simplistic.
For Aragorn, simple survival of battle isn't success. He takes the Host of the West to the Morannon as a final all-in gamble, and he is not walking away from that battle except victorious against all credible odds (just like Frodo). Aragorn knows that his efforts are merely a distraction and that his success isn't in his direct control (Frodo has more control).
Without knowing the outcome yet, their approaches are basically the same: they will give their all, even their life, to achieve their goal.
Only the result is different: Frodo is broken beyond healing in Middle-earth and Aragorn receives his reward within Middle-earth.


I think you sell Providence short: The essential goodness of those three hobbits is at least in part a result of the efforts of Providence. Even without that, and without Gollum, Sauron's defeat could still be arranged through later efforts. It is only the perspective of our protagonists that this is the last chance for Middle-earth (Amdir), while Estel allows belief in Sauron's ultimate defeat through means currently unseen.
 
If you view them in those terms I can understand your interpretation, but I think that is too simplistic.
For Aragorn, simple survival of battle isn't success. He takes the Host of the West to the Morannon as a final all-in gamble, and he is not walking away from that battle except victorious against all credible odds (just like Frodo). Aragorn knows that his efforts are merely a distraction and that his success isn't in his direct control (Frodo has more control).

I'm looking at the beginning of their journeys, their determination as they leave Rivendell, so what Aragorn will later do is not even imagined. What you say is true after the battle on the Pelennor fields, but is not what Aragorn is thinking of as they prepare to begin their journey. He anticipates danger but it's all part of what he has to do to deserve the kingship and Arwen. He sets forth in hope; Frodo in despair.
 
I would argue against the idea that Frodo is setting out in despair. I'm sure he has absolutely no amdir -- the whole idea of the quest is patently absurd. One does not simply walk into Mordor after all. But I would say he has felt a calling since the moment Bilbo left... There was a reason he didn't go with him, and while his friends could sense a restlessness in him, there was a reason he hadn't left before the talk with Gandalf. Being the Ringbearer was his vocation, but I'm not sure he fully accepted the call until his last encounter with Boromir. I would say he left Rivendell feeling burdened, but not in despair. In fact, I think Frodo completely bypasses despair. His will is so focused on resisting the lure of the Ring that he gets to a state beyond the simply emotional. Will vs. Will. No room for love or hate, hope or despair. Sam must carry that load for both of them.
 
I'm looking at the beginning of their journeys, their determination as they leave Rivendell, so what Aragorn will later do is not even imagined. What you say is true after the battle on the Pelennor fields, but is not what Aragorn is thinking of as they prepare to begin their journey. He anticipates danger but it's all part of what he has to do to deserve the kingship and Arwen. He sets forth in hope; Frodo in despair.
Sorry, I think he sees further ahead than you give him credit for. Even leaving Rivendell I think he recognises the peril they all face on the road and that he might have to alter his plans.

Of the company that leaves Rivendell I think there are three members who truly believe that they must succeed or die trying: Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn. I think they all leave with similar levels of Amdir, i.e. zero or close to it, and are trusting to Estel.
I think Sam is a special case: Because his focus is on Frodo, he doesn't include either form of hope in his thinking.
The others may have some Amdir, but that is possibly due to their sense that they _can_ stop if it gets too hard. They might hate themselves for giving up, but it is still an option for them.

I think Boromir believes, as Captain-General, that he must succeed or die at the front in Gondor and that this journey to Gondor is a _return_ to that mission, not part of it.
 
I would argue against the idea that Frodo is setting out in despair. I'm sure he has absolutely no amdir -- the whole idea of the quest is patently absurd. One does not simply walk into Mordor after all. But I would say he has felt a calling since the moment Bilbo left... There was a reason he didn't go with him, and while his friends could sense a restlessness in him, there was a reason he hadn't left before the talk with Gandalf. Being the Ringbearer was his vocation, but I'm not sure he fully accepted the call until his last encounter with Boromir. I would say he left Rivendell feeling burdened, but not in despair. In fact, I think Frodo completely bypasses despair. His will is so focused on resisting the lure of the Ring that he gets to a state beyond the simply emotional. Will vs. Will. No room for love or hate, hope or despair. Sam must carry that load for both of them.

Frodo sees the quest as hopeless, but whether he imagines success or not, he does not imagine returning from it. He believes he is going to his death. And later, amid the eruption of Mt. Doom, he is almost right - only Gandalf and Gwaihir, both other-worldly beings, can save him (and Sam).

Vocation is too Catholic a term for me, but yes, a calling. But Frodo does not realize the power the Ring has over him until later. It's Bilbo who sees it in him, and only then is able to evaluate his own life with and after the Ring. Frodo's understanding comes later. He is aware, as his watching the red star shows, that Sauron is looking for him all the time though he doesn't actually see the Eye until Galadriel's mirror. I think his greatness emerges after he leaves the fellowship, especially in his relationship with Gollum, which is so powerful that it almost brings about Gollum's redemption. And yes, there is less and less of Frodo all through Mordor: Sam does carry the whole of the emotional burden there. By the time he stands at the Cracks of Doom there is nothing left of him or of Gollum - both are completely consumed by the Ring.

I've been thinking lately about whether Frodo is ever good at hobbitry. I think there is a definite difference between the Frodo of the Shire (and even of the inn at Bree) and the later Frodo. He is still one of the hobbits, including hobbitry, early on, and it disappears after Weathertop.
 
I've been thinking lately about whether Frodo is ever good at hobbitry. I think there is a definite difference between the Frodo of the Shire (and even of the inn at Bree) and the later Frodo. He is still one of the hobbits, including hobbitry, early on, and it disappears after Weathertop.

I am intrigued by this suggestion. In one of his letters, Tolkien says that both Bilbo and Frodo remained unmarried (a very un-hobbit thing to do) because they felt somewhere deep inside that they needed to be unattached. Fascinating to contemplate whether there was not also some sort of tension in Frodo between his love for Bilbo and the Shire and whatever influence the Ring might have been casting all those years in Bag End (after all, Bilbo had turned out to be as worthless as Gollum, though in a completely different way!). I think Tolkien maps his change gradually -- in chapter 2, his response surprises Gandalf; with Gildor we see his conviction deepen (and Sam's); Tom Bombadil and Goldberry make him aware in a different way of the value of all of Arda; and then the Barrow-downs become a 'trial by fire' of his willingness to sacrifice himself. We can see how all these little 'yes' moments lead to the great 'Yes' at the Council. I suspect that this quality is what Sam responded to first in Mr. Bilbo and then in Mr. Frodo -- what Merry called "things deeper and higher" than the soil of the Shire. [Side note: looking for Merry's exact words had me re-reading The Houses of Healing chapter, which used up 8 tissues.]
 
I am intrigued by this suggestion. In one of his letters, Tolkien says that both Bilbo and Frodo remained unmarried (a very un-hobbit thing to do) because they felt somewhere deep inside that they needed to be unattached.

Frodo is also taumatised by his family's history. The rumours he had to listen to a child about his parents killing each other were enough to sour any possible realtionship prospects for him.
 
Kate, that scene is one of my favorite in the whole LOTR - "It is better love first what we are fitted to love, I suppose" might be my favorite line. I think it should be done in cross stitch on a sampler. That chapter is to me what makes Aragorn a king. And it's such an important piece of Faramir's story. Only 8 tissues? But then I often read it with the scenes between Faramir and Denethor, so I could bathe in my tears.

Odola, I doubt Frodo ever heard that bit of nastiness as a child - or even afterwards. Sandyman says it, and the Gaffer and the other hobbits in the inn are shocked and shut him down. It's not a common story, even as far away from his first home as Hobbiton. Which is not to say Frodo wasn't traumatized by his parents' death, and probably didn't have much time to grieve in the crowded Brandy Hall.
 
Odola, I doubt Frodo ever heard that bit of nastiness as a child - or even afterwards. Sandyman says it, and the Gaffer and the other hobbits in the inn are shocked and shut him down. It's not a common story, even as far away from his first home as Hobbiton. Which is not to say Frodo wasn't traumatized by his parents' death, and probably didn't have much time to grieve in the crowded Brandy Hall.

The Gaffer obiously heard it before, he reacts as if he had an answer ready for it stored away in his brain for an occassion that it comes up again.
Imho there is little chance Frodo never heard that one.
 
Among the Tooks and Brandybucks? The talk at the inn is regarding him as a stranger, in spite of the 14 years he's lived with Bilbo, and talking about the strangeness of Bilbo and Frodo. And there's a class difference as well. And I don't see any indication that the Gaffer has heard that bit of gossip before, nor that Sandyman has said it before.
 
Among the Tooks and Brandybucks? The talk at the inn is regarding him as a stranger, in spite of the 14 years he's lived with Bilbo, and talking about the strangeness of Bilbo and Frodo. And there's a class difference as well. And I don't see any indication that the Gaffer has heard that bit of gossip before, nor that Sandyman has said it before.

The story has not been invented at the spot, and really no one seems shocked in the scene, it is suggested that the Gaffer rebukes Sandyman out of presonal dislike, not for citing the [seemingly common] rumour:

"A decent respectable hobbit was Mr. Drogo Baggins; there was never much to tell of him, till he was drownded.'

'Drownded?' said several voices. They had heard this and other darker rumours before, of course; but hobbits have a passion for family history.... 'Well, so they say,' said the Gaffer. 'You see: Mr. Drogo, he married poor Miss Primula Brandybuck.... And Mr. Drogo was staying at Brandy Hall with his father-in-law, old Master Gorbadoc, as he often did after his marriage (him being partial to his vittles, and old Gorbadoc keeping a mighty generous table); and he went out boating on the Brandywine River; and he and his wife were drownded, and poor Mr. Frodo only a child and all.'

'I've heard they went on the water after dinner in the moonlight,' said Old Noakes; 'and it was Drogo's weight as sunk the boat.'

'And I heard she pushed him in, and he pulled her in after him,' said Sandyman, the Hobbiton miller.

'You shouldn't listen to all you hear, Sandyman,' said the Gaffer, who did not much like the miller. 'There isn't no call to go talking of pushing and pulling. Boats are quite tricky enough for those that sit still without looking further for the cause of trouble. Anyway: there was this Mr. Frodo left an orphan and stranded... among those queer Bucklanders....'
"

Seems quite a common story, much talked about, many quite freely told rumours surrounding it. Simply no way Frodo has not heard about them.
 
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