Is the Earendil poem only the third time that immortality has come up so far?

[Flammifer]

I can only think of two previous times that immortality has been mentioned:

Tom Bombadil, saying that he, 'was here before the river and the trees;...before the Dark Lord came from Outside'.

Strider, on Weathertop, saying that, 'Luthien Tinuviel alone of the Elf-kindred has died indeed and left the world'.

And, now Earendil, doomed to be, 'ever still a herald on an errand that should never rest'.

Can anyone remember any other places in either TLOTR so far, or in 'The Hobbit', where immortality, or the fact that the elves are immortal is mentioned?

In a letter, Tolkien responded to someone who asked whether TLOTR was an allegory of the Atomic Bomb, by saying, "No", but that it was an allegory of death and immortality.

Do we really know much about immortality so far? If we missed the reference to the fate of Luthien by Strider, do we even know that elves are immortal? Or, are we just supposed to assume so from what we know of Elves from European 'fairy stories'?

 

[Jim Deutch]

do we even know that elves are immortal?

Well, we've got hints, at least. In The Green Dragon, Sam wistfully remarks that the Elves are "sailing, sailing, sailing" and leaving Middle Earth. Gildor makes a remark or two that hints at great age. However, it is not only possible, but I think intended, that the reader won't get the hints, because even Frodo is flabbergasted at the Council when it finally hits home and he understands how old Elrond really is: "Eärendil was my sire..."

But surely the immortality of Elves is mentioned in The Hobbit, though I can't think of where, offhand.

 

[Flammifer]

Thanks Jim,

It's been longer since I read through the Hobbit, and I would have thought there was some mention of the immortality of Elves in there, but I cannot remember any. Can anyone?

I don't think the Elves 'sailing, sailing' says anything about their immortality. To Americans, it might just resemble some English people in a pub in the 17th century saying, 'Those Puritans are just sailing, sailing (over to Massachusetts Bay Colony). They are leaving us.' This just indicates that the Elves are leaving. It no more suggests that they are immortal, than that the Puritans were immortal.

The Luthien quote, is the only mention I can find so far to indicate that Elves are immortal.

This question occurred to me when I wondered whether we should have any doubt about the mortality of Earendil. As we are not first time readers, we know that Earendil is half-Elven, so, we might wonder whether he is mortal or immortal.

I think that Bilbo unmistakably positions him as mortal in the poem. I also think that we have absolutely no indication, as first time readers, that Earendil is anything other than human and mortal. Thinking about this, led me to wonder if we have had any indication so far that Elves are immortal?

Yes, we have. That one sentence about Luthien from Strider on Weathertop. But that is all that I can remember. And, that is not much so far.

Can anyone find anything else in the Hobbit or LOTR up to the poem?

 

[Beech27]

I think the ring poem itself is one of the first and most prominent clues that Elves don't age. After all, why emphasize that men are mortal and doomed to die, unless others are not? And Gandalf further tells us, regarding ring-lore, that ‘In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles - yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous."

There are other, more explicit clues, I think. Strider says that "Beren was a mortal man, but Lúthien was the daughter of Thingol, a King of Elves upon Middle-earth when the world was young." In the poem itself, she's "immortal maiden elven-wise."

There is nothing here quite so explicit as "Elves do not age per se", but I think it's easy enough to glean pretty quickly.

In The Hobbit, there are also a couple mentions of "mortal men"--although these are contrasted with the dwarves.

The only explicit reference to immortality I'm aware of is in reference to dragons, which we are told live "practically for ever, unless they are killed."

 

[Flammifer]

Thanks Beech27,

You have found some good references which I had forgotten. The Ring poem might give us a clue. It turns out, however, to be a dubious clue, as, presumably, Dwarves are mortal as well as men. At least, as far as we know from
'The Hobbit', Thorin, Fili and Kili die at the Battle of Five Armies. Thorin's last words to Bilbo are "I must leave it (the world) now. Farewell!" So, the fact that the 'Ring Poem' calls Men 'mortal' may not suggest to us, if we have read 'The Hobbit', that the other races are immortal.

However, I had forgotten the line, 'Immortal maiden, elven wise', about Luthien. So, there are two references on Weathertop, telling us that Elves are immortal.

Can anyone find anything that would indicate to us that Earendil is elven, or half-elven, or anything other than a mortal man?

 

[Anthony Lawther]

The only relevant references I've found to Gondolin within the Hobbit and LotR include it as the source of the Elven blades Glamdring, Orcrist, and Sting and as the birth place of Eӓrendil.

Gondolin is an Elvish settlement, which doesn't provide direct proof that he is of Elven descent, but a fair indicator that he is at the very least Elven-adjacent. A further point is that he married the daughter of Dior, the heir to Thingol, which suggests either that he was Elvish enough, or that the family attitude toward interracial marriage had relaxed significantly. The second option then seems to be dismissed by the relative rarity of interracial marriage in Middle-Earth, with the only examples that we know of from any source being:
Beren & Luthien (LotR)
Tuor & Idril (Silmarillion)
Imrazôr & Mithrellas* (HoME: PoME)
Aragorn & Arwen (LotR)

Eӓrendil and Elwing are both "Half-Elven" from the accounts in the Silmarillion, and seem to be potential claimants as heirs of their respective Elven houses, as well as Eӓrendil having blood of all three houses of the Edain through Tuor, and Elwing having Maiar descent. This supports Elrond (and Elros) being the culmination of all major lines of the Children of Illuvatar

*While not specifically stated in LotR, Imrahil is descended from this marriage, and we do see Legolas recognise and pay respect to Imrahil's Elven-blood. Interestingly, we don't see this same reaction from Legolas toward Aragorn, perhaps suggesting that either the Elven-blood in Aragorn is diluted too far to be noticed by Legolas, the choice of Elros rendered the Elven-blood nullified from the time of his choice, or that this mark of respect is only offered once on first meeting which we presumably don't see between Legolas and Aragorn.

 

[Octoburn]

Strider, on Weathertop, saying that, 'Luthien Tinuviel alone of the Elf-kindred has died indeed and left the world'.

I do not believe this line is referring to their immortality. Many, many elves died before Luthien. I believe that the "alone" there applies to "left the world" rather than to "[she] died indeed. I believe this would refer to her, "alone of the Elf-kindred," choosing to be counted among men, and not going to the Halls of Mandos when she died, therefore "leaving the world."

 

[amysrevenge]

Can anyone find anything that would indicate to us that Earendil is elven, or half-elven, or anything other than a mortal man?

I haven't done a literature search, but the Earendil poem combined with Elrond "Half-Elven" could imply to a new reader that Earendil was a mortal Man while Elrond's mother was an Elf. We Silmarillios know it's more complicated, but that's with a lot more backstory available to us.

 

[Flammifer]

I do not believe this line is referring to their immortality. Many, many elves died before Luthien. I believe that the "alone" there applies to "left the world" rather than to "[she] died indeed. I believe this would refer to her, "alone of the Elf-kindred," choosing to be counted among men, and not going to the Halls of Mandos when she died, therefore "leaving the world."

Hi Octoburn,

I agree that this line calls attention to the fact that elves may die, but still be 'immortal' (in ways that we don't really understand yet, if we are first time readers). We have not seen any elves die in TLOTR so far, but we did see many die in the Battle of the Five Armies in 'The Hobbit'.

So, when we come to this passage on Weathertop, we might wonder how elves might seem to die, but not 'die indeed', and how they might remain in the world.

We do not, however, have any answers so far.

 

[Anthony Lawther]

I do not believe this line is referring to their immortality. Many, many elves died before Luthien. I believe that the "alone" there applies to "left the world" rather than to "[she] died indeed. I believe this would refer to her, "alone of the Elf-kindred," choosing to be counted among men, and not going to the Halls of Mandos when she died, therefore "leaving the world."

I guess it also depends on how you define immortal:
1. Cannot die under any circumstances; unkillable; or
2. Doesn’t die of old age but can be killed by other means.

I don’t think definition 1 has ever really been in discussion here as we have seen Elves die in the Hobbit and we will later in the LotR hear of other Elves that die, most often in battle or under tragic circumstances. What we do get is a sense of greater tragedy than with Men, supporting the view that it wasn’t the fate of Elves to die.

We do get evidence of extremely long life (thousands of years) for Elves and we don’t seem to see or hear of current Elvish babies or small children which from a Mortal perspective effectively looks like the same thing as immortality.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Anthony,

I think there is a third definition of 'immortality', and it is the one that applies to elves (though we don't know this yet, if we are first time readers):

3. Does not die of natural causes, but can be killed, however this does not result in permanent 'death', but in rebirth into a new body (after some indeterminate time existing in spirit form in the 'Halls of Mandos').

Thus, only Luthien, of 'Elf-kindred', has 'died indeed', and 'left the world'. Other Elves may have 'died', but not 'died indeed', and they have not left the world, but remained within it.

We are told this on Weathertop. But, as first time readers, do we understand it? How would a first time reader interpret this? Can anyone remember how they did?

 

[Anthony Lawther]

Hi Anthony,

I think there is a third definition of 'immortality', and it is the one that applies to elves (though we don't know this yet, if we are first time readers):

3. Does not die of natural causes, but can be killed, however this does not result in permanent 'death', but in rebirth into a new body (after some indeterminate time existing in spirit form in the 'Halls of Mandos').

Thus, only Luthien, of 'Elf-kindred', has 'died indeed', and 'left the world'. Other Elves may have 'died', but not 'died indeed', and they have not left the world, but remained within it.

We are told this on Weathertop. But, as first time readers, do we understand it? How would a first time reader interpret this? Can anyone remember how they did?

The main driver for my post was Octoburn claiming the line about Luthien wasn't about the immortality of the Elves. I agree that it is, but obliquely.

For the average reader, first time or otherwise, there's no significant difference between definitions 2 & 3; Only if we read the wider corpus do we know that Glorfindel is 2.0, and line delivered on Weathertop is somewhat opaque without the extra background.

The primary difference in interpretation of 'immortal' is: If you stick a sword through their heart do they laugh at you, pull it out, and return it to you (either undead or Dorian Grey style); or do they collapse unmoving, go cold, and then decompose.

As we learn later in the text, the Nazgûl seem to be in the first category, while the Elves are in the second.
What happens to their spirit (Fëa) after that and whether they are given a new body (Hröa) is never directly dealt with in the LotR.

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Anthony,

I think that Strider's statement on Weathertop hints at those things that are not directly dealt with in LotR.

Saying that Luthien alone among Elf-kindred has 'died indeed' and 'left the world', leads us to wonder; "Well we know many Elves died in The Battle of the Five Armies, but maybe they did not 'die indeed'? Maybe they did not 'leave the world?' What is going on here?"

Surely, the first time reader, if paying attention, is asking some questions at this point? The first time reader must be speculating on a third model of immortality. "Well, the Elves in the Battle did not laugh at the Orcs, and pull deadly weapons out from fatal wounds, but, could it be, that they died, but not 'indeed', and are still somehow in the world? How might that work?"