Isildur's Bane

T

Taurandeth

New Member
Though every word of the Council of Elrond so far was duly discussed, there is still something I do not understand: Why is the Ring called Isildur’s Bane?
Elrond says: “But soon he was betrayed by it to his death; and so it is named in the North Isildur’s Bane.”
As we have read ‘The Disaster of the Gladden Fields’ in UT, we know how it came to pass that the Ring betrayed Isildur and became his Bane, but how can Elrond know? He says himself that only three men survived the attack and these three had left quite a while before Isildur put on the Ring – and the Ring betrayed him.
Does Elrond mean that the orcs would have been destroyed, if Isildur had cast the Ring into Orodruin’s fire, and so would not have attacked him? Or that the orcs had not been interested in attacking him had he not have had the Ring with him?
Is it possible that it was just an educated guess by Elrond (or maybe Ohtar or Valandil …) as he could imagine what must have happened? In this case it must have been a (very long delayed) confirmation of the guess to hear the phrase ‘Isildur’s Bane’ mentioned in a prophetic dream!
 
‘ “At the worst,” said [Saruman], “our Enemy knows that we have it not, and that it still is lost. But what was lost may yet be found, he thinks. Fear not! His hope will cheat him. Have I not earnestly studied this matter? Into Anduin the Great it fell; and long ago, while Sauron slept, it was rolled down the River to the Sea. There let it lie until the End.” ’

From Unfinished Tales, we're also told that Saruman apparently found Isildur's resting place and determined that the Ring was not there, and may have figured out what happened. Though even before that, I think the Wise could have made a good guess, as we're told a paragraph earlier:

"The story of the last hours of Isildur and his death was due to surmise: but well-founded. The legend in its full form was not composed until the reign of Elessar in the Fourth Age, when other evidence was discovered. Up to then it had been known, firstly, that Isildur had the Ring, and had fled towards the River; secondly, that his mail, helm, shield and great sword (but nothing else) had been found on the bank not far above the Gladden Fields; thirdly, that the Orcs had left watchers on the west bank armed with bows to intercept any who might escape the battle and flee to the River (for traces of their camps were found, one close to the borders of the Gladden Fields); and fourthly, that Isildur and the Ring, separately or together, must have been lost in the River, for if Isildur had reached the west shore wearing the Ring he should have eluded the watch, and so hardy a man of great endurance could not have failed to come then to Lórien or Moria before he foundered. Though it was a long journey, each of the Dúnedain carried in a sealed wallet on his belt a small phial of cordial and wafers of a waybread that would sustain life in him for many days – not indeed the miruvor or the lembas of the Eldar, but like them, for the medicine and other arts of Númenor were potent and not yet forgotten. No belt or wallet was among the gear discarded by Isildur."

In short, if Isildur had kept the Ring, he should have been able to get through the orcs to safety. Since he didn't, the Ring must have left him, by design or misfortune. Therefore, it is called Isildur's Bane in the North.
 
So the next question is:

Was this discovered by CSI: Annúminas, or CSI: The Wise?

The former would give greater credibility to it being known "in the North" as Isildur's Bane. As most of the Arnorian survivors of the Last Alliance went home via the western roads through Dunland, Enedwaith, and the Bree-lands, I suppose there was a large enough force available to protect any investigators sent to learn what they could from the battlefield.
 
Trying to think back to what I thought in the years before Unfinished Tales: within LotR there are no real details beyond what Elrond says -- that Isildur's small company was ambushed near the Gladden Fields and only three people made it back to Rivendell, including his esquire carrying the shards of Narsil. I think I always imagined that Isildur planned a diversionary action, drawing the attack towards him with the intention of using the Ring to escape, and that one of the three survivors saw his body in the river.
I love the UT version, of course; the relationship between Isildur and Elendur brings tears to my eyes.
 
Another question. Elrond says early in the council: "But soon he was betrayed by it to his death; and so it is named in the North Isildur's Bane."

It is interesting that Boromir challenges whether the "bright ring in the Halfling's hand" is the correct ring. But he does not question the interpretation of his dream:
Seek for the Sword that was broken:
In Imladris it dwells;
There shall be counsels taken
Stronger than Morgul-spells.
There shall be shown a token
That Doom is near at hand,
For Isildur's Bane shall waken,
And the Halfling forth shall stand.
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Why does Boromir accept that this line refers to a golden ring? How would he know that a ring can "waken"? Durin's Bane is a creature, not jewelry; it can be woken by a fool of a Took. Why not suppose that, e.g., Isildur's Bane is the Witch King, crossing the Great River for the first time in ages? Or a Balrog? Or a kangaroo? Or, actually, why can't Isildur's Bane be Aragorn? The prophecy starts out "seek for the Sword that was broken": I would say a plausible follow on should be, "and kill the wielder, who is Isildur's Bane, his own heir, follower to the general failure of his line, who will weaken Gondor..."

But, generally, why does Boromir focus on genealogy of a trinket, and not on whether the entire poem is being completely misinterpreted?
 
DolorousStroke said:
Another question. Elrond says early in the council: "But soon he was betrayed by it to his death; and so it is named in the North Isildur's Bane."

It is interesting that Boromir challenges whether the "bright ring in the Halfling's hand" is the correct ring. But he does not question the interpretation of his dream:

Why does Boromir accept that this line refers to a golden ring? How would he know that a ring can "waken"? Durin's Bane is a creature, not jewelry; it can be woken by a fool of a Took. Why not suppose that, e.g., Isildur's Bane is the Witch King, crossing the Great River for the first time in ages? Or a Balrog? Or a kangaroo? Or, actually, why can't Isildur's Bane be Aragorn? The prophecy starts out "seek for the Sword that was broken": I would say a plausible follow on should be, "and kill the wielder, who is Isildur's Bane, his own heir, follower to the general failure of his line, who will weaken Gondor..."

But, generally, why does Boromir focus on genealogy of a trinket, and not on whether the entire poem is being completely misinterpreted?
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Durin's Bane was not woken by any kind of Took, but by deeply delving Dwarves. The fool of a Took simply alerted the residents of Khazad-Dûm that they had uninvited guests, causing the already woken Balrog to investigate.

As the archaic meaning of bane is the one that seems appropriate throughout the Lord of the Rings, being something that causes someone's death, I don't see how any of your examples could be considered as Isildur's Bane, unless the Witch King was the one that actually slew Isildur.

Boromir is not described as showing surprise at Isildur's Bane being a ring, but when we get to Faramir (in about 10 years time) we get a better understanding of the limits of Lore in Gondor. Regarding Isildur's Bane:
Frodo made no answer. 'So! ' said Faramir. `I wish then to learn from you more of it; for what concerns Boromir concerns me. An orc-arrow slew Isildur, so far as old tales tell. But orc-arrows are plenty, and the sight of one would not be taken as a sign of Doom by Boromir of Gondor. Had you this thing in keeping? It is hidden, you say; but is not that because you choose to hide it? '
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So in many respects it is more interesting to question why Boromir didn't question why any ring would be considered Isildur's Bane (cause of death).

Why was he not expecting a weapon of some kind, or some form of necromancy 'wakening' the remains of the orc that slew Isildur?
 
A Gondorian might also infer that the Sword is the token that Doom is near at hand and/or that the Halfling is going to stand forth with strong counsels. I said in another thread that while Boromir's initial response to the Ring is clearly evocative of Smeagol's first reaction, both Boromir and Smeagol are also responding to the beauty of the Ring -- it is remarkably desirable in and of itself, apart from any power. [Smeagol, particularly, had no reason to think it was anything other than a beautiful treasure.] I think I originally thought that Boromir was resisting the idea of a doom-laden baneful object being also a thing of such beauty -- surely a sword is the more obvious choice. But when Saruman articulates (through Gandalf) the potential of the Ring -- he wants it, my precious.

Granted, read with knowledge of what Denethor says and does later, it is easier to imagine that Boromir was tasked with bringing either Isildur's Bane or the Sword back to his father. And then, of course, there's the added layer of internal authorship: how well does Frodo remember what Boromir said? Was the chapter edited in Gondor based on Aragorn's memories? And what about Tolkien's original drafts? You could drive yourself crazy sifting through all those layers.
 
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Anthony Lawther said:
Why was he not expecting a weapon of some kind, or some form of necromancy 'wakening' the remains of the orc that slew Isildur?
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Isildur's Bane could be a weapon, but it could also be a person, an object, or even an idea. It just has to be the thing that led to his death, whether directly or indirectly. Theoden's, for instance:

"Faithful servant yet master's bane, Lightfoot's foal, swift Snowmane"
 
So who gave the Ring the name Isildur's Bane, by which it was known in the North? There really is only one possibility - the person who urged Isilidur to put it into the Fire, who heard him refuse to do so, who guarded his infant son after the disaster, and nurtured and preserved his lineage throughout the long years of the Third Age. Elrond knew that Isildur would, sooner or later, bring disaster on his House by keeping the Ring. When disaster came, Elrond must have known or guessed its cause immediately. He may not have known the details, but he would have known that the Ring was to blame.
 
Interesting that it is "named in the North Isildur's Bane" but apparently the South has no idea that the Ring survived the War and had anything to do with Isildur's death. Why did the dream use the words? If, as Gorhendad The Old plausibly posits, Elrond was the one who devised that sobriquet [sadly no one calls the Silmarils 'Fëanor's Bane'], then I will posit that it was Celebrían who introduced the name to the Valar. I am now going to insert into my head-canon a scene in which Vaire interviews Celebrían in the Halls of Mandos in order to properly weave her portion of the story of the World, during which she learns of Elrond's coining of "Isildur's Bane." Mandos, of course, would have talked briefly with Isildur in his brief stop in the Man section of the Halls before heading to his ultimate destination beyond the circles of the world: not long before the entire pack of Valar are using the term, universally accompanied by a sad shake of the head...
 
A possible slight variation on this is that Elrond, in explaining the situation to young Valandil referred to the Ring as 'your father's bane' without the intent of it becoming the term of reference, and Valandil then substituted 'Isildur' for 'your father' and continued the use of this expression when he returned to Annuminas.

Slightly nuanced approach with the same effect.
 
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