Istari vs. Maiar

Xandercles

New Member
Okay, I know this is super asynchronous, but I'm just listening to the podcast in 2019, and just listened to ep.5, where you covered Gandalf and Frodo's conversation wherein Gandalf revealed how long he knew (or, well, guessed) that Bilbo's ring was indeed the One. Gandalf's reluctance to broach the subject, due to Saruman's growing pride, and the various emotional sort of vulnerabilities (guilt, shame, indecision, etc.) made me start to wonder if by incarnating in flesh, did the Maiar assume some sort of frailties inherent to physical beings? I never read (well very much of) the Silmarillion, so I don't even know if Maiar are purely spiritual beings or not to begin with, but I wonder if Tolkien meant the assumption of emotional responses over time when incarnated reflected his own (Catholic?) beliefs that WE are in fact spiritual beings as well, and when we cash in our "gift of man" we will likewise shed these? Thanks.
 
I’ll leave the Prof to answer the larger question, but I will point out that Catholic doctrine would be that human beings are body and soul composites, and that the body and soul will be reunited in the afterlife (in other words, thoughts and emotions are still going to be there, but would be perfected).
 
made me start to wonder if by incarnating in flesh, did the Maiar assume some sort of frailties inherent to physical beings?
Valar and Maiar can put on flesh the way we put on clothes, but the Istari's incarnation was truer and deeper; presumably, it was done TO them, as opposed to their usual self-arrayment. They were deliberately diminished because their mission to middle earth was not for a display of power, but for a subtler kind of help that such power would only hinder. (Of course, Gandalf then got an upgrade when he died and returned...) They very definitely assumed the frailties inherent to physical beings.

There's a lot more to be said, and a lot of difficult to reconcile writings from different stages of Tolkien's career, but that's the gist as I understand it.
 
I have always considered the physical frailties that they took on upon incarnation, but not the mental/psychological/spiritual frailties they would also have to assume. That's a good point. Would Maia Saruman (Curunir, or whatever) have been susceptible to corruption the same way incarnate Saruman was?
 
I have always considered the physical frailties that they took on upon incarnation, but not the mental/psychological/spiritual frailties they would also have to assume. That's a good point. Would Maia Saruman (Curunir, or whatever) have been susceptible to corruption the same way incarnate Saruman was?
I believe he would have been susceptible to the same effect but in different ways. Much in the same way that Sauron himself was susceptible as a Maiar, not to mention many of the other who followed Melkor in his rebellion. I think it would be an interesting study to see the differences in being a more spiritual being vs. being incarnate and attached to a physical body. Sauron and Morgoth would make a really interesting studies on this matter because when they becomes more attached to the world and their physical bodies they retreat more into themselves and rely on manipulation and the domination of others because they seem to be more and more afraid knowing they can lose.
 
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