Managing Character Deaths

Eliza

Member
We need to educate the audience as to how and why this isn't just a 'two people from different countries' situation. The 'sundered fates for all eternity (or at least until the end of Arda)' issue might not be obvious until it's pointed out. People are used to thinking of the mortal of a mortal/immortal pair dying first; they're not necessarily used to considering a segregated afterlife being an issue.
Totally agree. In addition to the afterlife issue, one of my main take-aways from the Athrabeth is simply that Elves and humans see the world in very, very, very different ways. Their ways of being in the world are just so different, so their priorities, reasoning, and decision-making processes presumably diverge as well.

Maybe that's part of why Finrod says that if Elves and humans every marry, "it shall be for some high purpose of Doom." Setting aside the spiritual aspect, maybe sharing a great Doom takes the couple so set apart from ordinary life and society that they have more in common with each other than either has with their own people. I think you can see this in both Beren/Luthien and Tuor/Idril. Before either couple get together, Beren and Tuor spend years wandering alone. They're completely cut off from their own people and the rest of the world. Luthien and Idril are both still part of their respective societies, but they both end up rebelling against their kings to some degree. It's like the couples come together only when (or while) their ties to everything else are cut, leaving each of them the only person the other can relate to on some deep level.

(Not sure if that last part made a ton of sense...sorry!)
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Totally agree. In addition to the afterlife issue, one of my main take-aways from the Athrabeth is simply that Elves and humans see the world in very, very, very different ways. Their ways of being in the world are just so different, so their priorities, reasoning, and decision-making processes presumably diverge as well.

Maybe that's part of why Finrod says that if Elves and humans every marry, "it shall be for some high purpose of Doom." Setting aside the spiritual aspect, maybe sharing a great Doom takes the couple so set apart from ordinary life and society that they have more in common with each other than either has with their own people. I think you can see this in both Beren/Luthien and Tuor/Idril. Before either couple get together, Beren and Tuor spend years wandering alone. They're completely cut off from their own people and the rest of the world. Luthien and Idril are both still part of their respective societies, but they both end up rebelling against their kings to some degree. It's like the couples come together only when (or while) thing their ties to everything else are cut, leaving each of them the only person the other can relate to on some deep level.

(Not sure if that last part made a ton of sense...sorry!)
Remind me how Idril rebelled against Turgon. Because he seemed to approve of the match, far more than Thingol did of Beren and Luthien in any case.
 

Eliza

Member
Remind me how Idril rebelled against Turgon. Because he seemed to approve of the match, far more than Thingol did of Beren and Luthien in any case.
Oh, sorry I left that ambiguous. I was thinking of how she had a sense of foreboding and therefore built the secret tunnel out of Gondolin. "Rebel" might not be the right word -- more like "did not accept the party line" maybe? Mostly I was thinking about how her outlook was diverging from her father's confidence, to the point that she felt she needed to take her city's safety into her own hands, on the quiet.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
I don't know if it follows our timeline, but I was daydreaming (I'm at work on Saturday, I'm allowed to) and imagined a death scene for Andreth. Not sure if this is the thread for it, but we were talking about it here so here it goes.

She's very old. Feverish. Doesn't recognize where she is or who she's with. Aegnor is there (for whatever reason), cradling her head in his lap. She voices aloud all her regrets, all her anger, everything (the tone of this could vary - more anger vs.more regret, depending on exactly how we wanted it to play), not realizing the source of all of it is right there with her. He listens to all of it in silence, gently brushing her hair out of her eyes, maybe with a cool damp cloth. She passes, and he silently rises and goes immediately into battle. He never speaks again.
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Today's session revisited the question of how and when certain characters will die. Obviously, we're going to kill off almost everyone, eventually.

It is a bit troublesome (though clearly based on the source material) that we seem to be killing off many of the Noldor women first. Obviously, the reason we are doing this is that the canonical character deaths of some of the characters are still in the future, so we are waiting until they are 'supposed' to die. But Corey Olsen raised the possibility that we could shift canonical duties onto another character, and then kill off the canon character early, if need be.

As an example (not a suggestion), Angrod could be killed any time after the Kinslaying reveal. That is the last 'duty' he has in our story, apart from his role in Dorthonion during the Dagor Bragollach. So, if we wanted Glaurung to kill a named elf when he snuck out (for instance)....Angrod would be available, and his role in the Dagor Bragollach would be given to his brother Aegnor.

That's a pointless example, because there is no reason for the change. But a more radical suggestion would be that maybe it's Angrod who is captured, put under the Spell of Bottomless Dread and turned unwitting puppet/trojan horse. In that case...we would need another ambassador to Doriath and someone else who could tell Thingol about the Kinslaying. Presumably, his brother Aegnor would take on that role. The advantage of this is that we would spare Eldalótë, but if we have no role for her in the story...what's the point? So, she would have to be the one to take on Angrod's role as ambassador after his unfortunate capture and deteriorated mental state.

That is an example of how we could 'shift' Angrod's role to his wife, and then dispose of Angrod in whatever way we wanted. If he were the captive under the spell of Bottomless Dread, he could still die in the Dagor Bragollach as he's supposed to. Or we could come up with some other fate for him.

I actually have nothing against Angrod and am in no hurry to kill him. As I see it, he's simply the least 'locked down' character we have at the moment. We can't substitute Aredhel's story with anyone else's. Fingon can't die before the Unnumbered Tears. Etc. The only two minor-enough-that-we-could-change-their-roles-and/or-fates-without-altering-the-story-significantly are....Angrod and Amras. And it's important to me that all Fëanoreans be killed by elves, *not* minions of Morgoth, so...that really leaves Angrod. And I do like the build-up of the Angrod vs Caranthir animosity, so I wouldn't want to lose that, either.

It's a tough call.
 
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