Midwinter

Jedi Master Tessa

Jedi Master Tessa

New Member
Okay, I'm more than a year behind at the moment, so I apologize if this has already come up (I feel like I say that every time). But we keep talking about how the Fellowship leaves Rivendell on Christmas. This doesn't seem right. Appendix B uses the Shire calendar, NOT our modern calendar (Gregorian calendar?). We know this because there are events listed as being on Mid-year's Day and Lithe 1, rather than the dates in June that would correspond to those holidays. So when it says they left on December 25, that doesn't mean they left on what we would call December 25. There are 30 days in the Shire December, followed by Yule 1. I imagine that their Yule placed on the same day as our Yule: midwinter, around our December 21. That would place the Shire December 25 around our December 15, and our Christmas would be in their January (how very Orthodox of them). Alternatively, Yule could be placed on our Christmas (probably Christmas Eve for Yule 1 and Christmas for Yule 2), in which case the Shire December 25 is more like our December 18-19. Either way, midwinter hasn't come yet for them, and it's not a holiday. It would be labeled Yule 1 or 2 if it were actually Yule.

But then why would Tolkien put the day of their departure on a day he knew would stand out to us? He could probably have moved it by a few days in either direction. It's an odd choice.
 
Hi Jedi Master Tessa,

JRRT was better at math and calendars than you seem to assume.

In fact, 25 Foreyule (25 December in Appendix B) in the Shire Calendar is sort of the same date as 25 December (Christmas Day) in the Gregorian Calendar.

If you count the days from the beginning of the year in both Calendars, you will see that both are 359 days into the year (360 days in the case of leap years - accounted for in the Shire calendar by the addition of an extra day, "Overlithe", between the months of Forelithe and Afterlithe).

So, December 25, the date of the departure from Rivendell given in Appendix B is indeed December 25 in the Gregorian Calendar, if calculating from the start of the year.

The start of the year, however, was different. The Shire Calendar started the year "as nearly as possible to the winter solstice... the Shire dates were actually in advance of ours by some nine days". So Foreyule 25 Shire would have been December 16 Gregorian, and December 25 Gregorian would have been Afteryule 2 Shire.

However, it is not clear whether JRRT is using the Shire Calendar in Appendix B. The years are not Shire Reckoning, and the Months are Gregorian, not Shire months. So, the dates within the months, and the start of the years, could be Gregorian.

In any event, JRRT (despite trying to obfusticate in several letters) admitted in "Nomenclatura" that he chose that date for the commencement of the quest, and the date of March 25 for the conclusion of the quest deliberately. (To resonate with Christmas and The Annunciation.)
 
Last edited:
He does translate things, but the fact is that Lithe and Mid-Year's Day are both in Appendix B. If he isn't using the Shire calendar, why would they be there?
 
Jedi Master Tessa said:
He does translate things, but the fact is that Lithe and Mid-Year's Day are both in Appendix B. If he isn't using the Shire calendar, why would they be there?
Click to expand...

Hi Jedi Master,

I don't think it really matters whether he is using the Shire calendar or not. When he plops the date of 25 December into Appendix B, all that matters is that the readers associate the date of departure from Rivendell with Christmas. The association of the dates is far more important than any actual conjunction.
 
Jim Deutch said:
And, of course, there is no possibility of "actual" conjunction: ME is entirely "non-actual"!
Click to expand...
not true, it has our Sun, our Moon with its phases and our constellations, our seasons, our climates, our Northern Hemisphere, mostly our vegetation and widely our biology and physics; and first and foremost - our linguistic rules and sound changes - so the "entirely" above is widely exaggerated...
 
Last edited:
Odola said:
it [ME] has our Sun, our Moon with its phases and our constellations, our seasons, our climates, our Northern Hemisphere, mostly our vegetation and widely our biology and physics; and first and foremost - our logistical rules and sound changes - so the "entirely" above is widely exaggerated...
Click to expand...
and, entirely to the point, the Shire Calendar is completely "actual". In fact, I strongly favor its universal adoption. It just makes so much more sense!
 
Flammifer said:
Hi Jedi Master,

I don't think it really matters whether he is using the Shire calendar or not. When he plops the date of 25 December into Appendix B, all that matters is that the readers associate the date of departure from Rivendell with Christmas. The association of the dates is far more important than any actual conjunction.
Click to expand...

On this point, I'd like to quote Tolkien himself from
:
"As a matter of fact December 25th occurred strictly by accident, and I let it in to show that this was not a Christian myth
anyhow. It was a purely unimportant date, and I thought, well, there it is, just an accident."

So according to Tolkien the only significance of the date is to emphasise the non-christian nature of the story - exactly the opposite of what people sometimes assume.
 
Gorhendad The Old said:
On this point, I'd like to quote Tolkien himself from
:
"As a matter of fact December 25th occurred strictly by accident, and I let it in to show that this was not a Christian myth
anyhow. It was a purely unimportant date, and I thought, well, there it is, just an accident."

So according to Tolkien the only significance of the date is to emphasise the non-christian nature of the story - exactly the opposite of what people sometimes assume.
Click to expand...

There are many quotes Tolkien about it which differ slightly. For sure the Fall of Sauron 25th of March is not a coincidence. And historically and theologically 25th of December follows/-is dependent on/has its source in the 25th of March. And while 25th of December is just a random day in story, it would have been easy for Tolkien to change the date to e.g. 23th to 28th with no real change to whole of the story. Especially as both the Shire and Rivendell used different calendars from each other and from our current one so to pin-pint it to 25th of December in ME is not obvious in any way. So the date is chosen in the text for its out of story references, not for any in-story significance.
 
"So the date is chosen in the text for its out of story references, not for any in-story significance."

I agree, but I think the significance is the opposite of the one sometimes assumed - ie I accept Tolkien's
explanation that he chose to retain it in order
to emphasise the non-christian (or pre-christian) nature of the story. After all, it this _were_ a christian
myth then the 25th of December would be a very odd day on which to set out on a quest. The day after
Christmas (ie the 7th of January) would be a much more natural choice.
 
Gorhendad The Old said:
"So the date is chosen in the text for its out of story references, not for any in-story significance."

I agree, but I think the significance is the opposite of the one sometimes assumed - ie I accept Tolkien's
explanation that he chose to retain it in order
to emphasise the non-christian (or pre-christian) nature of the story. After all, it this _were_ a christian
myth then the 25th of December would be a very odd day on which to set out on a quest. The day after
Christmas (ie the 7th of January) would be a much more natural choice.
Click to expand...

Indeed, the problem in story is also the hobbits holiday of Yule. If this was midwinter and Yule festivites took 6 days then 21-22th (solstice) +6 days gives us 27-28th . So in story 25th is still in the middle of a hobbit festive season, a strange date to set out. While elves do not celebrate Yule but still hobbits do and those make up a substantial part of the fellowship.
 
Gorhendad The Old said:
On this point, I'd like to quote Tolkien himself from
:
"As a matter of fact December 25th occurred strictly by accident, and I let it in to show that this was not a Christian myth
anyhow. It was a purely unimportant date, and I thought, well, there it is, just an accident."

So according to Tolkien the only significance of the date is to emphasise the non-christian nature of the story - exactly the opposite of what people sometimes assume.
Click to expand...

Hi Gorhendad The Old,

You are correct that JRRT said that in an interview. However, later, writing in 'Nomenclatura' (his guide to translators on how to translate TLOTR into other languages) he said "December 25 (the date of setting out) and March 25 (the completion of the quest) were both chosen deliberately by me."

JRRT quotes cannot always be relied upon. He often obfuscates or diverts in letters or interviews. In his notes, I think he sometimes jots down in frame cover stories for out of frame references. JRRT did not want to make his Christian and Catholic references too obvious (he criticized the Arthurian legends on those grounds). However, I am pretty sure that his comment in 'Nomenclatura' is accurate, and that he chose those dates deliberately, and did it to fit with the key dates in the life of Christ.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top