More Boromir thoughts

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
A ring... is a weapon?

Thinking it through, as Boromir might be imagining (not as we readers would think of it, or as one of the Wise who are accustomed to Ring lore by this time). It's an Underpants Gnome problem:

1. Put on Ring
2. ????
3. Profit

What happens in Step 2, in Boromir's imagination? Does he shoot fireballs? Move more quickly and strike with more force in combat? Control the minds of his enemies (and/or allies)?

Sword? Weapon. Bow? Weapon. Even a horn, to blast at your enemies could be a weapon. How is a ring a weapon (again, to some random dude, not to someone who has been reading the story)?
 
Hi Amysrevenge.

Here's my take on what sort of weapon Boromir was thinking about. He was thinking of a defensive weapon. As he said, “It was not by numbers that we were defeated. A power was there that we have not felt before.” That power caused, "fear to fall upon our boldest, so that horse and man gave way and fled". I think that Boromir had concluded that that power was caused by the 'Morgul-spells', referenced in his dream.

His dream also stated that, "There (in Imladris) shall be counsels taken stronger than Morgul-spells". Boromir came to Imladris looking for a counter to this 'new power', these 'Morgul-spells'. That is what the dream seemed to promise.

So, if he is imagining counsel such as, "take this Ring, (or maybe this broken sword - he is not sure which yet) and do this with it, and the Morgul-spells will be annulled, (which, I guess he likely is) then he is imagining the 'weapon' as perhaps a shield, or perhaps some sort of 'spell disrupter'.

Possibly he is speculating, "maybe the Ring could shield a whole army or city from Morgul-spells, or the sword might be able to turn the spells back on the casters?"

Anyway, he is looking for a defense, or a defensive weapon. He is hoping to find some sort of counter to this 'new power', these 'Morgul-spells'.
 
And just by wearing it, these effects will occur? Or would one need to train oneself in sorcery somehow?

I still think there's a lot of ???? in the plan. Granted, it's obviously better on his finger than on Sauron's finger. But the details of Step 2 are still a bit fuzzy I think. Heavy on metaphorical strength, light on specifics. (That would be my inner engineer peeking out haha.)
 
I think he's primarily working backwards. He knows that Sauron is a powerful enemy, and wants the ring. So, turnabout isn't just fair play, but perhaps the only winning one. Looking ahead, the bold is as detailed as he will get, I think:

'So you go on,' he cried. 'Gandalf, Elrond - all these folk have taught you to say so. For themselves they may be right. These elves and half-elves and wizards, they would come to grief perhaps. Yet often I doubt if they are wise and not merely timid. But each to his own kind. True-hearted Men, they will not be corrupted. We of Minas Tirith have been staunch through long years of trial. We do not desire the power of wizard-lords, only strength to defend ourselves, strength in a just cause. And behold! in our need chance brings to light the Ring of Power. It is a gift, I say; a gift to the foes of Mordor. It is mad not to use it, to use the power of the Enemy against him. The fearless, the ruthless, these alone will achieve victory. What could not a warrior do in this hour, a great leader? What could not Aragorn do? Or if he refuses, why not Boromir? The Ring would give me power of Command. How I would drive the hosts of Mordor, and all men would flock to my banner!'

I do think he clearly lacks specificity regarding how this would work--but what time is there for that, especially when the Wise seem so reticent to divulge specifics?
 
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And just by wearing it, these effects will occur? Or would one need to train oneself in sorcery somehow?

I still think there's a lot of ???? in the plan. Granted, it's obviously better on his finger than on Sauron's finger. But the details of Step 2 are still a bit fuzzy I think. Heavy on metaphorical strength, light on specifics. (That would be my inner engineer peeking out haha.)

Hi Amysrevenge,

I am speculating on Boromir's thoughts when he stands up at the Council of Elrond. (He probably has somewhat more informed thoughts later, but still lots of question marks.)

So, yes, Boromir has plenty of question marks. But, he has come all the way to Imladris, specifically to seek counsel on how to defeat the new 'Morgul-spells' (prompted by his dream). So, he is looking for defense. He has just heard about the Ring (and not much specifically about its powers). He has also just heard that the sword in his dream is probably Elendil's sword, and it might well be here in Imladris.

He does not really know how either or both of these things might defeat 'Morgul-spells'. He is not even sure that they are the things that could defeat 'Morgul-spells'. But he suspects (from the content of the dream poem, which he has been thinking about for at least 4 months) that they could well be involved.

As to how they might work, he would have no idea. He must suspect, however, that Elrond will know. He came to Imladris to get 'counsel stronger than Morgul-spells', and he is beginning to feel confident that he will. As to how the Ring or the Sword might work, Boromir does not have a clue. Maybe you wear the Ring? Maybe you wave the sword like a wand? Maybe you have to say magic words? Boromir has probably not even begun to think about those things yet.
 
I suspect Boromir’s plans are much more comcrete than this. The One Ring is a weapon of Dominion — one that is maintaining the foundations of Barad-dûr. If he can take the Ring and seize control of it, the forces of Mordor will be his to command, as dominion over them comes with the One Ring.

Where I suspect he has not gone with that line of thinking is that he (or, as I suspect he is more likely planning, Denethor) would become a new Dark Lord. But that risk, I think, might be one that he would consider a necessary one — as his father will say: “Nay, it should have been kept, hidden, hidden dark and deep. Not used, I say, unless at the uttermost end of need, but set beyond his grasp, save by a victory so final that what then befell would not trouble us, being dead.”
 
That's still kind of metaphorical though. When Denethor says " not used" I think he has a lot better idea of the exact actions to attempt to use it. It's all still a reach above practical for poor Boromir.

Step 1: Put ring on.
Step 2: Exert dominion*
Step 3: Profit

*What does that mean? What are the sub-steps of Step 2? Tell each orc individually what to do, verbally? Concentrate really hard on what you want and your wishes come true? Boromir strikes me as a practical fellow who wouldn't know what to do with a ring of power, only that it would be good, in general, to have one, and bad for your enemy to have one..
 
It has just been explained to the Council that the Ring was made by the Enemy with the express purpose of exercising dominion of other's wills and actions.

If Boromir has made the safe assumption that the 'power ... that we have not felt before' is subject to Sauron, he probably thinks that using this Ring will allow the forces of Sauron, including this new power, to be nullified or redirected. I see Boromir's approach to this as being like Monty Python's King Arthur to the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch: He doesn't know how it works, but if it offers the promise of working he's ready to learn how.

Later, the Ring temptation forms on the seed of his desire to nullify (dominate) the enemy forces, and presents him with visions of being the Grand Commander of armies. The Ring temptation, as a matter of course, glosses over the details.

This also speaks to the futility of military force as a means to permanently defeat the 'forces of evil', as dominion of others is the primary purpose of deploying a military force, while dominion of others is the very evil they are fighting against.
 
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That's still kind of metaphorical though. When Denethor says " not used" I think he has a lot better idea of the exact actions to attempt to use it. It's all still a reach above practical for poor Boromir.

Step 1: Put ring on.
Step 2: Exert dominion*
Step 3: Profit

*What does that mean? What are the sub-steps of Step 2? Tell each orc individually what to do, verbally? Concentrate really hard on what you want and your wishes come true? Boromir strikes me as a practical fellow who wouldn't know what to do with a ring of power, only that it would be good, in general, to have one, and bad for your enemy to have one..

In answering your question, I would call to mind the old Sidney Harris cartoon from the New Yorker (https://donsnotes.com/religion/images/HarrisMiracle.gif is one place to see it.). I agree that Boromir is likely of a practical turn of mind regarding this but his thinking is that it is a weapon to be wielded (as he will explain to Frodo in his Ring inspired monologue). He will Command (note the capitalization) the forces of Men and rout the forces of Mordor. It is vague but it appears that he does not expect it to be a challenge to claim toe One.
 
I suspect Boromir’s plans are much more comcrete than this. The One Ring is a weapon of Dominion — one that is maintaining the foundations of Barad-dûr. If he can take the Ring and seize control of it, the forces of Mordor will be his to command, as dominion over them comes with the One Ring.

Where I suspect he has not gone with that line of thinking is that he (or, as I suspect he is more likely planning, Denethor) would become a new Dark Lord. But that risk, I think, might be one that he would consider a necessary one — as his father will say: “Nay, it should have been kept, hidden, hidden dark and deep. Not used, I say, unless at the uttermost end of need, but set beyond his grasp, save by a victory so final that what then befell would not trouble us, being dead.”

Hi Matt,

I doubt that Boromir's thoughts would have run so far at the moment he stood up in the council of Elrond. He really does not know much about the One Ring yet. He is not even sure that it is here in Imladris (though he may suspect so). I think he is still preoccupied with a defense against the 'new power' which his troops faced in Ithilien, and not thinking of anything so grand as commanding the forces of Mordor. I don't think he is even at all sure that he should be the one to counter that 'new power' himself. He must be wondering about the line in his dream, "the halfling forth shall stand".

I don't think he would be at all surprised at this point if Elrond were to counsel him, "Yes, the Morgul-spells can be turned aside, and even back upon their wielders, but it must be done by a halfling. If you can persuade Frodo to go to Minas Tirith with you, then, chances are that the 'new power' could be defeated and Gondor could hold the line!"

I think it is easy to overestimate how much Boromir knows at this point (as we know so much more). I think that Boromir does not know much with certainty. I think his main thoughts at the point he stands up are:

1. "It is a good thing that one of us went to Imladris. I am impressed. I am hopeful that we will get counsel 'stronger than Morgul-spells'.

2. "Really this council should hear about my dream before we go much further. We have heard intelligence about recent events from around the Western World, but I have a vision, perhaps angelic, perhaps divine, which indicates that this council may be crucially important. The council should hear this now!"

I really don't think that Boromir, yet, is thinking much about the Ring being able to 'command the forces of Mordor', or destroy the forces of Mordor. He is just hoping for counsel that will enable Gondor to overcome the 'new power', the 'Morgul-spells', which defeated his forces in Ithilien.
 
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