Morgoth's and Sauron's creativity

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I've been listening to the second-last podcast where Corey argues that Morgoth and Sauron are both about power, creation, rule and order and says he is convinced that Melkor would still tell to himself that everything needs to be torn down to be able to create anew from scratch...

Now, with all respect, i think that is a fundamentally wrong understanding of Morgoth at this point.While it is true that creation and altering of the great song was what Melkor had in mind at the beginning and he still DOES in a way create or alter a lot of things, it think it is clear that at one point Melkor pretty much abandoned the idea of creation, order, making and rule... that is because he is frustrated and hateful of illuvatar, who can create while he can not.So he still rules and "warps" things, but that is not his final goa lbut only tools or temporary steps in his plan , his final goal is to prove Eru wrong and destroy creation and life - if he can't create then there shall be no creation at all! Morgoth is basically a nihilist and rule, "creating" ( in truth just " disfiguring" and "corrupting") , strength, power are but tools to him in his spiteful war against eru and life.

Sauron is far from that kind of Nihilism... he is just a petty tyrant who is all but satisfied with his vision of rule, order, power, But Morgoth isn't happy with that at all.
 
Morgoth is basically a nihilist and rule, "creating" ( in truth just " disfiguring" and "corrupting") , strength, power are but tools to him in his spiteful war against eru and life.

Sauron is far from that kind of Nihilism... he is just a petty tyrant who is all but satisfied with his vision of rule, order, power, But Morgoth isn't happy with that at all.
Really interesting thoughts!

I can't help thinking of the barrow-wight's chant. If you've never read any JRRT but tLOTR, you've never heard of Morgoth, so you can only assume that the Dark Lord in the chant is Sauron, and he is explicitly portrayed in it as nihilistic and spiteful against all that is beautiful and alive.

In addition, I would note Gandalf's comment that Sauron would be pleased by enslaved and tortured Hobbits, but would like it even better if they were all wiped out. I don't have the book handy, so I can't look this up; is it in The Shadow of the Past?
 
", till the Sun fails and the Moon is dead.In the black wind the stars shall die,and still on gold here let them lie,till the dark lord lifts his handover dead sea and withered land."

Not sure about this, neither whether the mentioned dark lord is morgoth or sauron nor that the failiure of the sun and the dead of the moon implies nihilism per se, "lifts his hand over" might imply rule as well as destruction...

I'd be interested in that quote on sauron and the hobbits though!

I also can't understand Coreys opinion that Sauron abhors the orcs... i find little evidence for this, he seems to find them useful tools and abhors them probably little more than he does abhor anything else, he just finds mortaL men possibly an even better tool in many ways. But there is much evidence as far as i can see that MORGOTH does abhorr orcs... he hates his own creatures, because they remind him of his own inferiority in comparison to eru who can create while he himself can not, and is happy to hurt Eru by twisting his creations into self-hating, misfortunate monsters...

Boy, that Morgoth guy has a father - son and inferiority complex! Sauron... possibly just another failed and disillusioned artist with megalomania.
 
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