Names, and shorthand conventions

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Something I've been thinking about. It's not important, and it's not like it's a mistake we're likely to make or anything, it's just on my mind.

The text uses a shorthand convention sometimes: "Maedhros went east"

Sometimes this means the individual Maedhros grabbed a bag and set off east.

Sometimes this means the individual Maedhros, his household, and his personal... subjects? followers? servants? subordinates? all packed up their bags and set off in wagons to the east.

I think that a casual reading of the book strongly suggests mostly the former, when it would end up being mostly the latter. At face value, the book reads like the adventures of a couple dozen Elves, each of whom can magically pull an army (and sometimes offspring lol) out of their pack as required.
 
Good point! I guess it's safe to read Maedhros as Maedhros plus his retinue/Household troops
 
Yeah, good point. My guess is that usually "Prince so-and-so did X" means the Prince and his subjects. So when Finrod rebuilds Eglarest and Brithombar and erects Barad Nimras, he doesn't do it all with his own hands. He may personally participate -- he's a decorative stone-carver, and we could make him an architect too -- but he surely had a bunch of his subjects who did much of the construction.


There are a few examples where it seems to mean just the Prince and a small retinue, or even a Prince by himself:

1. Fingon rescues Maedhros entirely alone (plus Thorondor).
2. When Angrod, and later all three sons of Finarfin, go visit Doriath, it seems that Thingol only allows them personally into the Girdle. Even if they bring fancy diplomatic retinues, the impression I get is that Thingol stops those other guys at the border.
3. When Finrod and Turgon travel down the Sirion, I've always thought it was just the 2 of them.
4. When Finrod, Maedhros, and Maglor go hunting in the east, they could bring some hunting companions with them, but not whole armies lol. It might actually just be the 3 of them. When Finrod splits and goes off by himself, I've always thought he went off totally alone, so whatever retinues he had brought east would be left behind with the Feanorians.
5. Aredhel leaves Gondolin with just 3 bodyguards, who get lost in Nan Dungortheb. (They're nameless, so I'm in favor of one getting bloodily eaten/sucked empty to remind audiences how awful that place is.)
6. When Celegorm and Curufin are exiled from Nargothrond, not one other person goes with.
7. Maeglin gets captured in the hills alone.
 
Yes, I've been trying to keep in mind that these are Hosts of people, and so each household has a bunch of extras in it, with retinues, etc. Entourages can be interesting or window dressing, but we haven't done much with them to this point, with the exception of Thingol's court in Doriath.

I was hoping that we'd have the opportunity in Season 4 to flesh out both Turgon's retinue (the leaders of the later Houses of Gondolin) and Finrod's (his companions who died with him when he went on Beren's quest).

The Fëanorean hangers-on will likely remain shadowy, for a couple of reasons. One, we have enough brothers to keep track of that any extra people will just be cluttered. But more than that...the Fëanoreans get less and less sympathetic as we go (and they aren't exactly angels to start with), so why anyone stays loyal to them becomes a bit of a question. They're only staying loyal to each other over the Oath, it seems. We might want one non-Fëanorean 'Host of Fëanor' character to be an outsider point of view at some point, but if we don't need that, we probably won't elevate anyone above an extra.
 
Yes, I've been trying to keep in mind that these are Hosts of people, and so each household has a bunch of extras in it, with retinues, etc. Entourages can be interesting or window dressing, but we haven't done much with them to this point, with the exception of Thingol's court in Doriath.

I was hoping that we'd have the opportunity in Season 4 to flesh out both Turgon's retinue (the leaders of the later Houses of Gondolin) and Finrod's (his companions who died with him when he went on Beren's quest).

The Fëanorean hangers-on will likely remain shadowy, for a couple of reasons. One, we have enough brothers to keep track of that any extra people will just be cluttered. But more than that...the Fëanoreans get less and less sympathetic as we go (and they aren't exactly angels to start with), so why anyone stays loyal to them becomes a bit of a question. They're only staying loyal to each other over the Oath, it seems. We might want one non-Fëanorean 'Host of Fëanor' character to be an outsider point of view at some point, but if we don't need that, we probably won't elevate anyone above an extra.


Just remember that if we don't give the Feanorians anyone to talk to, they will have to have reasons to visit each other in order for them to be on screen.
 
Just remember that if we don't give the Feanorians anyone to talk to, they will have to have reasons to visit each other in order for them to be on screen.
This is more true for Caranthir and Amras than for the other four, who live in pairs. But it's a good point about all of them. There'll be councilors, thanes, captains, majordomos, etc. In actual conversation it's awkward to talk to people who have no names, repeatedly for multiple seasons. And throwing names about in dialogue doesn't necessarily mean the named characters need more than very brief characterization.

The Fëanorean hangers-on will likely remain shadowy, for a couple of reasons. One, we have enough brothers to keep track of that any extra people will just be cluttered. But more than that...the Fëanoreans get less and less sympathetic as we go (and they aren't exactly angels to start with), so why anyone stays loyal to them becomes a bit of a question.
This is certainly true for most of them, and the sons of Feanor themselves provide the stories of formerly-mostly-decent people who end up as warmongers/mass-murders. Celebrimbor is the main face of the folks who go to Nargothrond and then desert from Celegorm and Curufin.

Still, there are others in Nargothrond, Feanorians who die in battle before the Second Kinslaying, and Feanorians who help sack Doriath but then desert during the Third Kinslaying. We might want to name those who kill the sons of Dior, and/or those who abduct the sons of Earendil (if they aren't the same guys). There are also survivors who stick around in the Second Age (in Eregion?). We may need to flesh out some of them, or at least include them as doing things, in various scenes.


They're only staying loyal to each other over the Oath, it seems. We might want one non-Fëanorean 'Host of Fëanor' character to be an outsider point of view at some point, but if we don't need that, we probably won't elevate anyone above an extra.
I think the brothers are loyal to each other, except Celebrimbor and sort of Amras. Curufin tries to undermine/disobey Maedhros sometimes but isn't deserting him during the Fifth Battle. I'm sure they all love each other as family normally do, even Amras (one can love and hate one's sibling at the same time).

Why do their followers stay loyal to them during the Second and Third Kinglayings? Evidently most of these folks have as many morals as their princes (or less, since oaths of loyalty aren't magically-unbreakable). I don't have much sympathy for people who willingly serve warmongers and help them kill or enslave people. Some Feanorians probably take their oaths of loyalty more seriously than innocent lives, and it's likely illegal to desert. In a royalist society, people don't necessarily give consent to their rulers, they're expected to obey without question. The Noldorin royal family isn't tenuously on top of independent feudal lords who can easily challenge them, like in Europe. They're on top of vassal-lords who aren't their rivals, so those who aren't loyal have only one choice: desert. After the Nirnaeth, desertion becomes increasingly dangerous, since there are fewer and fewer places to go. Elves and Men do survive in little groups of outlaws here and there, but it's a desperate existence, and the risk of being taken alive to Angband is terrifying. That isn't a good excuse for killing innocent people, of course (nor a ringing endorsement of royalism in general). But there were Feanorians who remained loyal until the Third Kinslaying, and then either deserted or stood aside, so they apparently had or grew some conscience.

Edit: We'll also want to show Elros and Elrond's lives among the Feanorians, and I personally want to expand the later chapters of the Silmarillion beyond the bare-bones treatment they got from Tolkien. There might be no other Feanorians who ever interact positively with the twins, except for Maedhros and Maglor. But will we ever want the twins to interact negatively with any Feanorians? If so we may want names and faces.
 
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Erestor could be a member of the Fëanorean Host, and that's how he knows Elrond. I'd be fine with him being just a minor background character throughout most of the First Age, and then only once the twins are on the scene do we really get to know him at all. He could express some of the 'this is why your foster father is so messed up' backstory to the twins, making it clear that he's trying his hardest to remain loyal while doing so.

I mean, I wrote that fanfic, with Littleheart Son of Voronwë in that role, but...we're definitely going to have to flesh out that time period a great deal. You know, when we get to Season 10 :p
 
I'm pretty sure that while Maglor and Maedhros live close by to each other, they have separate residences. During the Dagor Aglareb, the Orcs break through in Maglor's land, near to Maedhros' hills. So they would need to either travel, or have people to talk to, if only to order about. I'm also concerned about Fingolfin and Fingon.
 
Side characters came up in the Casting discussions, too. Haerangil started a discussion about side characters in general, and finding names for them, here: https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/unalligned-characters.3056/

I think there are enough names available for followers of Fingolfin, Fingon, and the Feanorians. We'd just need to grab names as needed, and convert them from Gnomish or Qenya to LotR-style Sindarin.
 
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Side characters came up in the Casting discussions, too. Haerangil started a discussion about side characters in general, and finding names for them, here: https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/unalligned-characters.3056/

I think there are enough names available for followers of Fingolfin, Fingon, and the Feanorians. We'd just need to grab names as needed, and convert them from Gnomish or Qenya to LotR-style Sindarin.

Ah, I missed that one. My recent concerns have been in response to the Hosts' statements that we "don't need any more characters" when ... we kinda do.
 
You guys have got some really good ideas. I like the Erestor introduction especially.

I think we can use Celebrimbor as someone the brothers talk to. Curufin isn’t the best of dads so Celebrimbor could probably travel around Beleriand and its realms visiting his uncles. I think especially of him staying a while at Caranthir’s place and getting to know some dwarves.
 
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