Nargothrond

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
So Finrod is going to be constructed in Episodes 11-12, and Thingol will be a big influence on the design. The Menegroth thread is Here, and how much of Menegroth will Finrod incorporate into Nargothrond?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I think one thing that should set Nargothrond apart from Menegroth is that Nargothrond is built primarily with defense and secrecy in mind. I don't think it should be a bunker, but it should be closer to a bunker than Menegroth.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Posting some potential locations.

The Yangtze: 2235
2236


The river is perhaps a bit wide.



Nestos river, Greece: 2237
223822392240
 

Octoburn

Active Member
I really like these locations. The third and fourth pictures are especially intriguing for Nargothrond.

As for the actual sets, I have a few to present, interior and exterior.

First, Tolkien's own drawing.

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My real issue here is that this is not a very secretive presentation. But that seems common with Nargothrond art. Would this not be easily spotted by the enemy? Maybe the gate itself should be around a bend, in a bit of a canyon away from the face of the river, with a path leading around the river? I know the Guarded Plain is supposed to protect the gate from enemies coming near, but is that effective enough to keep it hidden for so long?

I do like the triple archway entrances, though I don't know what purpose they would serve, especially that close together.

Another piece depicting the entrance.

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Obviously, this is like 60 seasons down the road, but I really like the architecture around the gate.

And something for the interior.

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(EDIT: didn't realize that got so grainy when I uploaded it. Here's a direct link: https://i.redd.it/eguxvehrm6p31.jpg)
This one I'm conflicted on. I always imagined Nargothrond as basically a maze or set of caves, but would the Noldor settle for something so like Menegroth? This could obviously tread close to the presentation of the Paths of the Dead in the film, but if done right could work.

Another thing to consider, about sets altogether, is that I have some experience 3D modeling (for a LotR game) and could possibly put together some 3D sets. They would likely be very ameteurish, little lighting, etc. but it would be something. Just something I'm considering.
 
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Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
My real issue here is that this is not a very secretive presentation. But that seems common with Nargothrond art. Would this not be easily spotted by the enemy? Maybe the gate itself should be around a bend, in a bit of a Canton away from the face of the river, with a path leading around the river? I know the Guarded Plain is supposed to protect the gate from enemies coming near, but is that effective enough to keep it hidden for so long?

I do like the triple archway entrances, though I don't know what purpose they would serve, especially that close together.
That illustration is from 1928, according to Tolkien Gateway. Here are some other illustrations of the exterior by Tolkien. I'm not sure if they are earlier or later than that one:





These are a bit more stylized than the other one, but the entrance seems a little less obvious. Three arches seem to be a standard feature. I can't really guess their scale from these images. Based on the size of the steps, the entrances seem pretty small, but the bridge looks ridiculously slim in comparison. Ignoring the steps and guessing the scale assuming the bridge is large enough for several man-sized beings to walk abreast, the doors would be pretty large. However the doors are made, the Elves of Nargothrond could certainly conceal them with foliage.

Another piece depicting the entrance.



Obviously, this is like 60 seasons down the road, but I really like the architecture around the gate.
I, too, like the architecture in this illustration, particularly the pointed arches and the capitals. An entrance this elaborate would be highly impractical for a city that is trying to hide, of course. Free-standing columns outside the secret entrance? Really? If we have something like this for the entrance, it should probably be added after the bridge is built.

I think my favorite thing about this illustration is that the bridge in the top right crosses the river above the cliff the entrance is set in, suggesting that the entrance itself is tucked out of view at a lower point in the cliff.

And something for the interior.



This one I'm conflicted on. I always imagined Nargothrond as basically a maze or set of caves, but would the Noldor settle for something so like Menegroth? This could obviously tread close to the presentation of the Paths of the Dead in the film, but if done right could work.
The Silmarillion describes Menegroth as "the fairest dwelling of any king that has ever been east of the sea.," so I don't think Menegroth is just a set of caves, and I don't think either it or Nargothrond come anywhere close to the Paths of the Dead as the film depicts them except maybe after Nargothrond has been pillaged by Glaurung. Finrod is highly impressed by Menegroth and wants it to emulate in Nargothrond, so I think the design of the two cities would have a lot in common, especially since both were made in collaboration with the Dwarves. The Noldor may bring their own design elements to the city rather than copying Menegroth exactly, but they are both cities of caves.

That illustration, interestingly, seems to depict the river itself as flowing so deep in a gorge that it is practically underground and the city itself carved from the living rock but not hidden within it.
Another thing to consider, about sets altogether, is that I have some experience 3D modeling (for a LotR game) and could possibly put together some 3D sets. They would likely be very ameteurish, little lighting, etc. but it would be something. Just something I'm considering.
Please do! That would be awesome!
 

Octoburn

Active Member
That illustration is from 1928, according to Tolkien Gateway. Here are some other illustrations of the exterior by Tolkien. I'm not sure if they are earlier or later than that one:

These are a bit more stylized than the other one, but the entrance seems a little less obvious. Three arches seem to be a standard feature. I can't really guess their scale from these images. Based on the size of the steps, the entrances seem pretty small, but the bridge looks ridiculously slim in comparison. Ignoring the steps and guessing the scale assuming the bridge is large enough for several man-sized beings to walk abreast, the doors would be pretty large. However the doors are made, the Elves of Nargothrond could certainly conceal them with foliage.
If memory serves, the ones you posted are earlier. I think the "post and lintel" gates predate the arches; I will have to check The Art of Tolkien, which I believe has all 3 of these.

You are right, they could be easily concealed, and after rereading some stuff online, I believe before the ridge was built, the path leading to the gates was a narrow path across the top of a cliff, which was the defense of the gate.

I, too, like the architecture in this illustration, particularly the pointed arches and the capitals. An entrance this elaborate would be highly impractical for a city that is trying to hide, of course. Free-standing columns outside the secret entrance? Really? If we have something like this for the entrance, it should probably be added after the bridge is built.

I think my favorite thing about this illustration is that the bridge in the top right crosses the river above the cliff the entrance is set in, suggesting that the entrance itself is tucked out of view at a lower point in the cliff.
Yes, the bridge above caught my eye as well, and was what brought it to my attention that taking the gate from directly facing the river may be a good idea. I'm still conflicted on it.

The Silmarillion describes Menegroth as "the fairest dwelling of any king that has ever been east of the sea.," so I don't think Menegroth is just a set of caves, and I don't think either it or Nargothrond come anywhere close to the Paths of the Dead as the film depicts them except maybe after Nargothrond has been pillaged by Glaurung. Finrod is highly impressed by Menegroth and wants it to emulate in Nargothrond, so I think the design of the two cities would have a lot in common, especially since both were made in collaboration with the Dwarves. The Noldor may bring their own design elements to the city rather than copying Menegroth exactly, but they are both cities of caves.
Oh, I meant no offense to Menegroth (though Gondolin may have something to say about all that "fairest" stuff ) just that I think it would be more visually pleasing to differentiate the two.

That illustration, interestingly, seems to depict the river itself as flowing so deep in a gorge that it is practically underground and the city itself carved from the living rock but not hidden within it.
That's what I really found interesting was that the river seemed to originate within the city, on top of parts of the city being carved from the stone, rather than just caves. That is what imeant with comparing it to the Paths of the Dead, they're both carved from a cliff-face, Petra-style.

Please do! That would be awesome!
I may do it.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I have been thinking some about how to keep the triple gates of Nargothrond that Tolkien illustrated and also have the hidden city seem actually hidden. My thought is to have three naturally formed arches that lead to a tunnel, in which the gates are set. The actual gates are set far enough in the tunnel that they are not visible unless one enters the tunnel.
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Here is how I imagine the natural arches from the outside.
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However, the arches would be obscured by trees and not visible unless one got right up to them, which the Elves of Nargothrond would not allow any enemies to do.

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Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
YES! A few additional things to help with the illusion that I don't think you could show on Minecraft are that the pillars and tunnel would be made from the same stone as the canyon wall, so they would be the same color; they would also be mostly naturally formed or made to look like they were, so even if the entrance itself was spotted, it would look like a natural cave rather than a major settlement; and the stairs would also look rough and fairly naturally-formed.

Also, it would be big enough for a Dragon to fit into.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
YES! A few additional things to help with the illusion that I don't think you could show on Minecraft are that the pillars and tunnel would be made from the same stone as the canyon wall, so they would be the same color; they would also be mostly naturally formed or made to look like they were, so even if the entrance itself was spotted, it would look like a natural cave rather than a major settlement; and the stairs would also look rough and fairly naturally-formed.

Also, it would be big enough for a Dragon to fit into.
Yeah, I made it on the small side so that the gates would look like gates. But as for the stone, other than the stairs, it is the exact same material as ... 90 percent of the Minecraft world. Seeing the protruding stone on the side of a mountain is pretty commonplace and wouldn't likely attract very much attention.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Really cool! But the river would have to be a bit wider, so one would need a bridge to get across (which of course will be built later), right?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Really cool! But the river would have to be a bit wider, so one would need a bridge to get across (which of course will be built later), right?
Yeah. I mentioned that in the video. I had a really hard time finding a good spot and I didn't feel up to doing too much terraforming.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
A river with meanders through a green gorge is the right look, I think. Just shrink the trees, and the scale will be okay.
 
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