Nature of Middle Earth - gestation lenghts' problems for Mithrellas' children

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I can't see that.Elves and humans are one race technically.It is not as if Elves are not homo sapiens.And Mithrellas giving birth to human children is just as the story goes... Imrahil is not a half-elf, yes he and his forebears have some elvish look, an air of nobility, but they are still mortals.Mithrellas gave birth to mortal children.I don't understand why that does deprave her of her motherhood and makes her an incubator.

Now i am trying to understand where you come from and... yes that kind of thinking seems to be logical, if elvish pregnancy does take longer than human, then it still should be this way, even if the children are destined to be mortals.Yet this obviously cannot be, as you pointed out yourself as it does not work. And it does not seem to work this way in the text either as Mithrellas children grow and live as humans.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I can't see that.Elves and humans are one race technically.It is not as if Elves are not homo sapiens.And Mithrellas giving birth to human children is just as the story goes... Imrahil is not a half-elf, yes he and his forebears have some elvish look, an air of nobility, but they are still mortals.Mithrellas gave birth to mortal children.I don't understand why that does deprave her of her motherhood and makes her an incubator.

Now i am trying to understand where you come from and... yes that kind of thinking seems to be logical, if elvish pregnancy does take longer than human, then it still should be this way, even if the children are destined to be mortals.Yet this obviously cannot be, as you pointed out yourself as it does not work. And it does not seem to work this way in the text either as Mithrellas children grow and live as humans.
I do not deny them being mortal, I do deny them not being human-elf hybrids. Like a Denisowan-Neanderthal hybrid, hybrid is hybrid. I do not think elves as homo sapiens, but certaily as "homo something".

And it does not work with the initial 108 years, but with the later 12 years of elvish pregnacy it could work. I am more of the opinion of some time in between 4-8 years, so circa about 6 years. And as Gondorians of Numenorian descent do age slower than normal humans already (1:3) so it would not be to difficult to have two who age even slightly slower than that.
 

Rachel Port

Well-Known Member
Depends on which version of Galadriel's story you take. Where she and Celeborn leave Valinor together either with or at the same time as Feanor, there is that trip, and in some version she and he live apart for some years. Either case or both could lead at least to some delay in her childbearing.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Depends on which version of Galadriel's story you take. Where she and Celeborn leave Valinor together either with or at the same time as Feanor, there is that trip, and in some version she and he live apart for some years. Either case or both could lead at least to some delay in her childbearing.
I do consider Celeborn a Sindar of Doriath. Doubt the Sindar and Silvan elves of Amroth would accept a non-Sinda ruler. See how disgusted was Thranduil with Galadriel - a Noldo - alone - he moved his whole kingdom north - also to avoid the Noldo influence - and cut any ties with his people's kin in Lothlorien untill after the War of the Ring.

And were Celeborn a Valinorian elf, he would have returned back home to his daughter with his wife and son-in-law and not moved in with his grand-sons just to be a witness of Arwen's and Lothlorien's aging and dying. He would have saved himself this heartbreak. were this heartbreak not necessary to make him willing to leave ME in the first place.

Were they married in Valinor "in their youth: they would have have ages of peacefull time to have had children and to rise them into adulthood all before the Darkening of Valinor. So makes no sense to delay it into a far more dangerous and unstable time and place.
 
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Rachel Port

Well-Known Member
Yes. Tolkien wasn't thinking about elven life cycles when he thought up that version of the Galadriel/Celeborn story. And I don't recall any mention of why Celeborn didn't leave Middle-earth with Galadriel. The thing is, Tolkien was trying to make his new thoughts about the life cycle fit with the stories he had already written (and Galadriel's is one of the latest of those) and he can't quite make things fit. That's the point - and if he couldn't make all of it fit, I'm sure we can't either. But it's fun to speculate.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Yes. Tolkien wasn't thinking about elven life cycles when he thought up that version of the Galadriel/Celeborn story. And I don't recall any mention of why Celeborn didn't leave Middle-earth with Galadriel. The thing is, Tolkien was trying to make his new thoughts about the life cycle fit with the stories he had already written (and Galadriel's is one of the latest of those) and he can't quite make things fit. That's the point - and if he couldn't make all of it fit, I'm sure we can't either. But it's fun to speculate.
As such the Celeborn as a Sindar from Doriath still accounts best for all the elements I've decribed above. And I've always understood Celebron as not yet being "ready to leave" with Galadriel - too much in love with ME's forests still - and as his words to Aragorn imply he though his separation from Galadriel to be of some duration:

'But Celeborn said: "Kinsman, farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!"'

Which actually did not pass, as he left not very long after in elvish terms - so the actual shock of seeing Arwen die and Lothrorien wither seemed to have made him ready to leave ME behind much sooner then he has expected.
This was too much for him, "he has had enough" so to speak.
His grand-sons have been long of age, and they did not need his supervision.

All of this would make no sense if he were a Valinorian elf fom the beginning, as he would already know the unspoiled beauty and tranquility of Valinorian forests.
 
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