Nature of Middle-Earth - on Eol's "immorality"

Odola

Well-Known Member
I can follow you to some degree only.The conclusions of your chain of argument i do not share.
No need ;-)
I am happy that you see where I am coming from.
But what other coherant explanations for the phanomena we observe would you suggest?
Would interest me?
Tolkien inherited the elves from the medieval traditions which seem to reach farther even in the past. In those old European myths the "other people" had a slightly different set of morals, having no problems with behaviours the main human population would consider at least of doubtfull morality and being seemingly unaware that the main human population has a set of certain rules which they are violating. Tolkien seemed to want to minimise the differences as he went along, but those are still visible in the stories.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Well is Eol painted in a positive light? Not so much.Whoever wrote his history, even in-world, did not seem to have much understanding or sympathy for him.He is pretty much painted as an anti-social, heartless, cold, egotistical, tyrannical being.

Personally... yes, i have some understanding and sympathy for him. Mostly because he is an underdog, an outcast, somebody who defies the great rulers... makes his own law. That is modern bias as well.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Well is Eol painted in a positive light? Not so much.Whoever wrote his history, even in-world, did not seem to have much understanding or sympathy for him.He is pretty much painted as an anti-social, heartless, cold, egotistical, tyrannical being.

Personally... yes, i have some understanding and sympathy for him. Mostly because he is an underdog, an outcast, somebody who defies the great rulers... makes his own law. That is modern bias as well.
For me Eol symbolises why, even if the Valar were wrong in establishing their "Pleasure Island", where they are "hoarding bliss" - as the Tolkien Professor once said - (bliss, which is - by extention - missing in other places, making those even more unbearable than naturally they had to be - ) it is wrong for elves not answer their call and refuse to go there. Without the Valars' protection and guidance in a fallen marred world elves are doomed to ultimately become Eols - or even worse - faded, vindictive spirits always feeling wronged and envious of humans, who, for all their failings, are able to come by in this fallen world. This is why in the end all elves have either to sail or to fade.

Edit: For me Eol does not make his own rules, he simply follows the ancient impulses of the ius naturale - as you wisely stated above - and not having noticed that, as the whole nature has been marred, this law - which flows from it - is a result flawed also - and having not idea how to correct for this corruption.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I don't see that. Eol is still unique...

We don't hear much about other dark elves, but as far as i can see none others became Eols.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
We don't hear much about other dark elves, but as far as i can see none others became Eols.
Not literally. But I do think Eol is a place-holder for all the dark-elves out there, which we do not see. They were benign at first, teaching the Atani basic survival skills. But not having a rapid generational exchange of humans, which limits the damage experienced by one idividual, the permanent shadow over millenia would have an effect like that one that we see in Eol. For me Eol is clearly a tragic figure, a little like someone turned an alcoholic but without ever having actually decided to start drinking. And Aredhel is very naive in marrying someone clearly discfuctional. He is barely making it on his own, how can he carry on a relationship?
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Allright so you think the other dark elves are like Eol.I think that might be possible to a degree...
The silvan elves of Mirkwood or lorien certainly were not, but i admit we only meet them after they are already acculturated to the Sindar and Noldor... plus they are technically Nandor, not Avari.Don't know if that would be a big difference though.

I actually can quite imagine that if someone travelled to Rhun or Harad and met a tribe of Avari they would be very much like Eols folk,or the green elves... xenophobic, unfriendly... even potentially dangerous.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Allright so you think the other dark elves are like Eol.I think that might be possible to a degree...
The silvan elves of Mirkwood or lorien certainly were not, but i admit we only meet them after they are already acculturated to the Sindar and Noldor... plus they are technically Nandor, not Avari.Don't know if that would be a big difference though.

I actually can quite imagine that if someone travelled to Rhun or Harad and met a tribe of Avari they would be very much like Eols folk,or the green elves... xenophobic, unfriendly... even potentially dangerous.
Have you listened to today's/yesterday's NoME session (the 9th)?
There we have another explicit parallel between Eol and the Avari/Seniors.
The young elf/-ves choosing Valinor/Gondolin over them is an affront to the old/dark elf/-ves auhority and seniority (and as such "unfilial" - connecting this to the value discussion in the other thread)
but while Eol considers Unfiliality a capital offense the "the old guard" is only most sincerely "not amused" (after all, they have been at least "consulted" officially in this matter).
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I usually don't listen to it. But interesting to have a parallel as well as a direct difference to Eol.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I got tired of Coreys streams, maybe one day i'll start again listening to him, but not very soon.
 

Jim Deutch

Well-Known Member
There are individual elves who do commit evil. It is clearly inherited by their offspring.
Was Feanor evil from the beginning? We don't know of any actual evil acts he committed before the births of his sons. Can evil be inherited by offspring retroactively?
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Can't believe that. He is not even evil in the direct sense but he is overtly proud and fanatical, he certainly does evil things and things that lead to evil.He is elvendom, which in itself is per definition already extreme, brought to the absolute edge, a terrible and cruel person no doubt.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Was Feanor evil from the beginning? We don't know of any actual evil acts he committed before the births of his sons. Can evil be inherited by offspring retroactively?
Evil? Not. Overburdened with all the greatness by his mother pumped into him imho. She meant well but she clearly overdid it. There is only a certain amount of greatness an ellon can carry after all. And she is avoiding him. When he is was born she entered Mandos, when he arrived there, she left. Afraid to face her little "Frankenstein", maybe? She was imho already strongly "overshadowed" before she even arrived in Valinor.
 
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