Nazgul search for The Shire – Problems of time and space?

Flammifer

Well-Known Member
Looking at the map, and referencing dates in Appendix B, there are many problems of time and space around the travels of the Nazgul in their search for the Shire.

Key Dates:
  • 29 June – Radagast informs Gandalf, “The Nine are abroad again. They have crossed the River secretly and are moving westward”. We don’t know exactly when the Nazgul crossed the River. I suspect on 21 June, after the attack on Osgiliath, but it could have been somewhat earlier.
  • 18 September – "The Black Riders cross the fords of Isen".
Problems:
  • It takes the Nazgul at least 82 days, and probably 90 days or longer to travel from crossing the Anduin to transiting the Gap of Rohan at the Fords of Isen?
This is much longer than it should take to traverse Rohan. What were the Riders doing?

Could they have headed all the way back up to the Gladden Fields to check those out before returning back to the Gap of Rohan?

Might they have engaged in a hunt for Gollum? Appendix B says (in the only entry for August 3018), “All trace of Gollum is lost. It is thought that at about this time, being hunted both by the Elves and Sauron’s servants, he took refuge in Moria; but when he had at last discovered the way to the West-gate he could not get out.” Were the Nazgul part of the hunt for Gollum? Did this take priority over the search for the Shire? Was it not until about the end of August that the Nazgul gave up on the hunt for Gollum somewhere near the gates of Moria, and then headed for the Gap of Rohan, taking more or less 18 days to get there?

  • If the Nazgul don’t cross the Fords of Isen until September 18 (The same day that Gandalf escapes from Orthanc), then they cannot have been in Eriador, causing “fear of which they would not speak,” among the ‘fugitives from the South’ whom Gandalf met at the Southern borders of The Shire back in late June. Was that ‘fear’ engendered by Saruman’s evil in breeding Uruk-hai, mis-interpreted by Gandalf’s own fears as caused by the Ringwraiths?
More Key Dates:

  • 22 September - The Black Riders reach Sarn Ford.
  • 23 September – Four Riders enter the Shire before dawn. One comes to Hobbiton at nightfall.
  • 30 September – Black Riders raid Crickhollow and the Inn at Bree in the early hours.
More Problems:
  • Once the Nazgul cross the Fords of Isen they do not spend much time searching for the Shire. They are flying! They reach the Shire four days after crossing the Isen. Amazingly, this is the same speed as Gandalf will make on Shadowfax just six days later. Those horses the Nazgul are riding are really fast!
  • Given that the Nazgul travel from the Gap to the Shire at break-neck speed, with no searching along the way, have the Riders known where the Shire was all along? Or, do they get (somehow) intelligence from Saruman as they pass by Isengard (I cannot imagine he would give this willingly)?
Observations:

As first time readers, going through Gandalf’s report to the Council of Elrond, all of our interpretations that we discussed in class are perfectly reasonable. It sounds likely that Gandalf did detect rumors of Black Riders from the refugees. It seems reasonable that the Nazgul were already in Eriador when Gandalf arrived at Orthanc. It is a natural assumption that the Ringwraiths take so long to find The Shire because they have to search through all of Eriador.

However, when we reach Appendix B, we have to question all those assumptions which we have held since we read the Council of Elrond.

Either Appendix B is incorrect, or our assumptions about the travels of the Nazgul are very wrong!

Given how much time and effort JRRT devoted to the Appendices, I doubt that Appendix B is wrong. So, what were the Nazgul up to in the time between June and mid-September 3018?

Speculations:

  • I guess that the Witch King had a pretty good idea of where The Shire was all along. He lived in Eriador from 1300, when he established himself in Angmar, until 1975, when he was defeated in the Battle of Fornost, and vanished from the North. The Witch King ruled in Eriador, and campaigned over most of it for 675 years. He knew it well. In 1601, “many Periannath migrate from Bree, and are granted land beyond Baranduin by Argeleb II”. So, strange, short, people lived in The Shire for 374 years while the Witch King was a power in Eriador. I think it likely he had a shrewd idea of exactly where to look for Hobbits! No wonder the Nine could gallop straight there from the Fords of Isen in four days, once they decided to go there. Now, there is a problem in Radagast's comment to Gandalf that, “wherever they go the Riders ask for news of a land called Shire”? Why would the Nine be asking if they already had a good idea? Well, possibly for confirmation (a lot can change in 1,042 years), but (perhaps as likely) they were not asking. This was a lie to Radagast from Saruman designed to draw Gandalf into Saruman’s trap.

  • I speculate that the Nine did not cross the Anduin with the immediate mission of trying to find The Shire and The Ring. There were about three months between crossing the Anduin and crossing the Fords of Isen. There is no reason (even if trying to maintain stealth) that it should take so long. I think the Nine were probably joined in the hunt for Gollum during this time. Why might the Nazgul have been hunting for Gollum? Perhaps because Sauron wanted to know the answer to two questions: “What did you tell the Elves?” and, more importantly (if Sauron’s spies had detected the interrogation by Gandalf) “What did you tell Gandalf?” and “What did Gandalf say? What did he do? Where did he go?” Sauron wants to know whether the existence of The Ring is still a secret from those powerful enough to possibly wield it, or not.
Conclusions:

Reading Appendix B must cause one to question all the reasonable assumptions which one had about the quest of the Nazgul for the Ring when reading Gandalf’s account during the Council for the first time. There appear a number of critical problems with time and space. I am sure there are other possible speculations on how to resolve these problems, but I think one must doubt the assumptions made when reading for the first time.
 
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Another way to frame the whole timing thing would be to not ask "how did it take them so long to traverse?" but rather to ask "how in the world did they traverse so quickly?"

They don't know where Shire is. Maybe it's part of Rohan? How long would they have to spend spooking villagers in rural Rohan before they convinced themselves that Shire wasn't nearby? It would be a catastrophic blow to their search to dismiss a region prematurely and ride on, leaving Shire and Baggins behind them. They have to be sure before they proceed.

And, there might also be a bias to suspecting the Shire to be closer to the Anduin/Gondor, rather than farther away. So they might spend even more time searching and questioning.

(I'm at work, about 2 miles from my house, with about 50,000 people living between me and my home. If I was told "hey, there's some guy named Doug with some neat jewelry, he lives somewhere between your office and your home, find him and you get 10 million bucks" it would take me quite a bit longer than the hour or so it takes to walk 2 miles to find Doug - and getting in my car and driving straight home as quickly as possible would be a terrible way to find Doug. And even in framing this example I've given myself WAAAY more information about where to find Doug than the Nazgul have of where to find Shire/Baggins.)
 
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Hi amysrevenge,

There are actually two problems here. Why did the Nazgul take 3 months from the Anduin to the Gap of Rohan, and then, why did it only take them 4 days from there to The Shire?

I think they have enough evidence from Gollum (and other places) to rule out Rohan as a likely location. Certainly to rule out the necessity for any lengthy search in Rohan. Rohan is a unified state. The geography of Rohan is presumably well known to many Rohirrim (especially as it seems many roam across it far and wide as nomadic horse herders). You wouldn't need to ask many people, "Where can I find a place called The Shire, in Rohan?" to figure out that there is no place called The Shire in Rohan.

Furthermore, they have probably deduced from Gollum that he originated near the Gladden Fields, and that he thought that Bilbo came from west of the Misty Mountains (Gollum likely figured that out from his investigations in Dale). So, if looking for a land with small people, near the Gladden Fields might be possible, but west of the Misty Mountains seems more likely if looking for Baggins. Furthermore, the Witch King is probably aware that there were small people living in Eriador (indeed, in The Shire) for the last 374 years in which he was a major power there, and that might be a good place to look even though it was more than 1,000 years ago.

Also, a lengthy search for The Shire in Rohan does not explain how rumors of Nazgul could have reached Gandalf on the borders of The Shire? Even if the Nine terrified some people in Rohan, they are unlikely to have sought refuge by moving west, through the Gap of Rohan, into the lands of their old enemies, the Dunlendings. If the Riders did not enter Eriador until 18 September, there is no way that rumors of them could have been carried by refugees to Gandalf in the south of The Shire in late June.

I find it difficult to think that the Nine spent 3 months searching Rohan for The Shire. Not a high probability search area. Wouldn't take long to confirm that no one in Rohan had heard of 'The Shire' and that many people in Rohan would have heard of it if such a place existed.

More likely that the Nine were doing something else for 3 months, besides looking for The Shire, before they crossed into Eriador and sprinted towards exactly the right location.

Of course, another possibility is that the Nine had not, in fact crossed the Anduin when Radagast informed Gandalf that they had. Perhaps they did not set out on the quest for The Ring until much later. Radagast's message might have been based on a lie from Saruman. Saruman might have known that this was the best lure to entice Gandalf post-haste to Isengard? However, if that were the case, why did Sauron delay in launching the Nazgul? What were they doing in the meanwhile? Why did he eventually send them later?

I think that JRRT, when constructing the Appendices, was well aware of what he was doing. "Ha!", thought he. "I know exactly what you assumed about the quest of the Nine, when you read Gandalf's account in the Council of Elrond. Now you learn that you were wrong!"

This leads not only to the question: "What really was happening?" But also, to the question: "Why did JRRT want to jar the first time readers' assumptions, when they got to the appendices?" "What was he trying to convey?"
 
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Is this not explained in Unfinished Tales "The Hunt for the Ring"? :oops: Been a while since i read it.
 
Hi Makar,

Thanks for reminding me of "The Hunt for the Ring" in "Unfinished Tales". I had not read "Unfinished Tales" for decades, and had forgotten this (though maybe some impact lingered as some of my suppositions are similar to some of JRRT's ret-conned suppositions).

Of course, after your reminder, I re-read it. However, I find that the search for the Shire by the Nazgul is not really explained by "The Hunt for the Ring" in "Unfinished Tales".

JRRT is obviously trying (after the fact) to examine the same questions about the travels of the Nazgul which I observed. However, Christopher Tolkien references four different manuscripts which his father wrote on this topic. As well as saying that he has found four versions, Christopher also says, "There is much other writing that bears on these events, adding to or modifying the story in important particulars. These manuscripts are confusing, and their relationships obscure."

So, "Unfinished Tales" are unfinished for a reason. JRRT's four versions of events contradict each other, and none of them really fit perfectly with TLOTR, both text and appendices.

In Version A: The Nazgul cross the Anduin on 1 July (which makes Radagast's statement to Gandalf on 29 June, that the Nine "have crossed the River secretly and are moving westward", incorrect). They do not move west, but North. They meet up with 2 more Nazgul from Dol Guldur, and travel North up the Anduin towards Gollum's old home before giving up on that direction and returning to the Wold in September, where they get word from Mordor to go interrogate Saruman (who is now suspected to know where the Ring might be). They arrive at Isengard 2 days after Gandalf's escape (which might contradict Appendix B, which says they cross the Fords of the Isen on the same day as Gandalf's escape - but they might have come to Isengard after crossing the Fords - however, that would make their 4 day dash from the Fords to the Shire (in Appendix B) even more improbably swift.) Saruman tells them nothing about The Shire, but, when leaving Isengard, they come across Wormtongue, who tells them where to go, and they are off.

Version B: Introduces the curious concept that the Nine were afraid of running water (JRRT notes in the margin, according to CT, that this was an idea which was hard to make fit, as the Nine would have had to ford the Greyflood, Isen, and other rivers, to get to The Shire). Thus, they sneak across the bridge over the Anduin the night before Boromir and Faramir defend it while it is cut down behind them. They then also divert North up the Anduin , all the way to the Gladden Fields, before returning towards the Gap of Rohan. This time they come to Isengard two days after Gandalf's escape (not fitting the Appendix B time-line, unless they come to Isengard 2 days after crossing the Isen. That would make their trip to The Shire even more miraculously speedy). They also learn where The Shire is from Wormtongue.

Version C: Has many similarities, but the Nazgul arrive at Orthanc while Gandalf is still a prisoner. Saruman tells them he will extract the location of the Shire from Gandalf, or hand him over. He goes to get Gandalf, only to see him flying away on an Eagle. He goes back to the Nine and tells them that Gandalf has told him where The Shire is, and tells them (from his own knowledge). They head off as fast as the wind.

Version D mostly goes into more detail about what Sauron might have learned about Gollum. Basically that he did not know that Gandalf had interrogated Gollum until about May, and that is why he launched the Nazgul.

So, having reviewed "The Hunt for the Ring" in "Unfinished Tales", no. The problems of time and space are not resolved therein. How did Gandalf get rumors of 'a fear of which they would not speak' from refugees at the South of the Shire in June, when the Nazgul were not anywhere near Eriador until September? How did the Nazgul manage to travel at Shadowfax speed from the Fords of Isen to the Shire? (Especially if they picked up the squint-eyed Southerner in Tharbad, and had to drag him along?) Was Radagast wrong? How did Radagast get the news? What were the rumors Gandalf was hearing in the South of The Shire?

JRRT never devised a satisfactory ret-con for these problems of time and space. That is why this is an "Unfinished Tale". So I guess we are totally free to devise our own speculations.

At any rate, all those speculations we discussed in class, which are perfectly reasonable and logical suppositions from the perspective of the first-time reader, are blown apart when we get to the Appendices. And, no. Unfortunately, JRRTs ret-con attempts to explain what happened were never finished and are contradictory, both between themselves, and in regard to TLOTR and the Appendices.
 
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