Frosty of Forochel
Member
Been listening, almost all caught up now. First time on the boards. But I'm left with a few nagging issues.
1) What is the name of this show? Is it just called The Silmarillion? Does it gain a new title when we move into the third age, a la Archie Bunker's Place? Forgive me if this was addressed in a session I didn't listen to. But it makes a difference. The Silmarillion is the history of the Silmarils, and if we don't get to those until the end of season two, that's an issue to me. Which leads me to...
2) I emphatically disagree with how season 1 was done. Because I don't think it should have been a full season. I'm fine with where it ends and all, but I think it really should have been a pre-series miniseries (a la V or Battlestar Galactica) of no more than 8 hours. Listening to season one and hearing entire episodes set aside for elucidating little bits of subtext just seemed wrong to me. Does it really take an hour to say "Melkor is bad. Oh, and he's into Varda"? And do we want the entire first year of the Silmarillion to feature not only no silmarils but essentially no elves at all? I want a solid set-up, but not "The Valar Power Hour". No one wants this to be a show like Babylon 5 where everyone says "it doesn't get good until season two." I'm tempted to remind folks that "he who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
3) But I was pleased to hear that the frame ideas were rethought and Corey's new plan that the frames should be successive in time. I agree (I was gritting my teeth during the initial season zero discussion!) Which leads me to the suggestion: at some point, one frame should be young Faramir, the "wizard's pupil" under Gandalf's tutelage! Either the history of Numenor, or perhaps of Gondor and Arnor. The latter if we want to use Aragorn's days among the Rohirrim to tell their story.
4) Regarding the origin of Orcs: I like where a lot of this has gone. There are many possible methods and I think the ideal is to suggest all of them and commit to none of them exclusively. Here's my thoughts. The original orcs were indeed things made "of stone and slime and hatred", in a mirror to how Aule made the dwarves. But Melkor learns the hard way what Aule did: that they are mere automatons. At first this is fine with him, but it becomes tiring and so the notion of fell spirits inhabiting said orc bodies is introduced (surely this is a similar method to how we get trolls, yes? And possibly giants?). Meanwhile, we have the torture and experimentation on captured Elves. I completely agree that a prime motivation is to understand them, as they are so unlike the Ainur. But where the other Valar just invite them to tea, Melkor opts for vivisection. Ultimately these ongoing experiments lead not only to unhousing their fea but also to cross-breeding and such. Why? Because Melkor or Sauron realize that breeding is essential for growing an army. He doesn't want to have to make new ones from scratch. In a war of attrition, continuing self-replicating forces is essential. So the Elf experiments become not just "how this works" research, but "how can we use this?" Ultimately all this leads to Orcs 2.0.
And this leads me to my favorite idea about the orc origins: If orcs 1.0 are involved in the torture of elves, we have here the origins of alien abduction tropes! These smaller, long-armed, bug-eyed, green-skinned monsters capturing and torturing elves with medical experimentation, taking fluid samples, etc. Perhaps these experiments are ongoing, and thus Celebrian's "torture" was just that: she's not overcome with just typical torment, she's got PTSD from her alien abduction experience! Throw in the hypnotic power of Morgoth and/or his dragons, and we've got all the basic elements of the modern idea! (well, except metallic implants, but maybe that's the origin of the lesser rings.)
Anyway, just some stuff I've been mulling over. Good luck on all the work and such. I may not be over on the boards too much as it's a rabbit hole that I could go down and never leave and then I'd never get anything done! But thought I'd join the discussion if only a little.
1) What is the name of this show? Is it just called The Silmarillion? Does it gain a new title when we move into the third age, a la Archie Bunker's Place? Forgive me if this was addressed in a session I didn't listen to. But it makes a difference. The Silmarillion is the history of the Silmarils, and if we don't get to those until the end of season two, that's an issue to me. Which leads me to...
2) I emphatically disagree with how season 1 was done. Because I don't think it should have been a full season. I'm fine with where it ends and all, but I think it really should have been a pre-series miniseries (a la V or Battlestar Galactica) of no more than 8 hours. Listening to season one and hearing entire episodes set aside for elucidating little bits of subtext just seemed wrong to me. Does it really take an hour to say "Melkor is bad. Oh, and he's into Varda"? And do we want the entire first year of the Silmarillion to feature not only no silmarils but essentially no elves at all? I want a solid set-up, but not "The Valar Power Hour". No one wants this to be a show like Babylon 5 where everyone says "it doesn't get good until season two." I'm tempted to remind folks that "he who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
3) But I was pleased to hear that the frame ideas were rethought and Corey's new plan that the frames should be successive in time. I agree (I was gritting my teeth during the initial season zero discussion!) Which leads me to the suggestion: at some point, one frame should be young Faramir, the "wizard's pupil" under Gandalf's tutelage! Either the history of Numenor, or perhaps of Gondor and Arnor. The latter if we want to use Aragorn's days among the Rohirrim to tell their story.
4) Regarding the origin of Orcs: I like where a lot of this has gone. There are many possible methods and I think the ideal is to suggest all of them and commit to none of them exclusively. Here's my thoughts. The original orcs were indeed things made "of stone and slime and hatred", in a mirror to how Aule made the dwarves. But Melkor learns the hard way what Aule did: that they are mere automatons. At first this is fine with him, but it becomes tiring and so the notion of fell spirits inhabiting said orc bodies is introduced (surely this is a similar method to how we get trolls, yes? And possibly giants?). Meanwhile, we have the torture and experimentation on captured Elves. I completely agree that a prime motivation is to understand them, as they are so unlike the Ainur. But where the other Valar just invite them to tea, Melkor opts for vivisection. Ultimately these ongoing experiments lead not only to unhousing their fea but also to cross-breeding and such. Why? Because Melkor or Sauron realize that breeding is essential for growing an army. He doesn't want to have to make new ones from scratch. In a war of attrition, continuing self-replicating forces is essential. So the Elf experiments become not just "how this works" research, but "how can we use this?" Ultimately all this leads to Orcs 2.0.
And this leads me to my favorite idea about the orc origins: If orcs 1.0 are involved in the torture of elves, we have here the origins of alien abduction tropes! These smaller, long-armed, bug-eyed, green-skinned monsters capturing and torturing elves with medical experimentation, taking fluid samples, etc. Perhaps these experiments are ongoing, and thus Celebrian's "torture" was just that: she's not overcome with just typical torment, she's got PTSD from her alien abduction experience! Throw in the hypnotic power of Morgoth and/or his dragons, and we've got all the basic elements of the modern idea! (well, except metallic implants, but maybe that's the origin of the lesser rings.)
Anyway, just some stuff I've been mulling over. Good luck on all the work and such. I may not be over on the boards too much as it's a rabbit hole that I could go down and never leave and then I'd never get anything done! But thought I'd join the discussion if only a little.