Bruce N H
Active Member
Hi all,
Relistening to the last two classes (NoME 18 and 19) on the problems associated with re-building bodies for dead elves. The problem came up that even if the Valar made new bodies as best they could, there would still be differences at the molecular (er, nassi) level:
"But the loremasters tell us that they may be in themselves not wholly and exactly equivalent ..."
The class discussion went on to say how the new hroa might not be perfectly fitted to the fea, because of very tiny distinctions - e.g. the exact numbers of molecules, or different isotopes. But I think this line of thinking introduces problems far beyond reincarnation - that the new hroa might not fit the fea because some atoms are in different places. The problem I see that that our atoms don't stay the same anyway - I eat a taco, new atoms get incorporated into my hroa. I cut my fingernails (or Beren loses a hand), old atoms get removed. So if our fear are so picky about exact atoms, we will never be comfortable in our constantly changing hroar. It's the old Theseus' ship problem - if I swap out the planks of the ship, is it the same ship, or if my cells divide and old cells die, am I the same me (or if one sentient android dies and they reprogram the body, while the old memories and personality get put into a new magically formed body, which is the real Vision)?
I do see one possible solution. If I were an elf that died, and the Valar built a new hroa for my fea, but accidentally included a taco, my fea might object - "Hey, what's up with the taco?!? This doesn't fit my pattern! I don't remember any tacos around here!". OTOH, if I just eat a taco, now my hroa has been changed into hroa+taco, but now my fea remembers the experience of eating the taco. So my fea, which has the memory of taco eating, is perfectly fit for hroa+taco, in a way that a hroa with no memory of taco eating would not be. So if a fea is not just a spirit wholly unaffected by the physical, but something that is constantly being molded and shaped by the experiences of the hroa, that fea is constantly going to be perfectly fitted to that hroa.
Of course, later on this question is essentially mooted: "that memory being in mind only and incorporeal will not be concerned with the history of the material used in the realization (so long as it is fitted for this purpose) but with the form only. Therefore the fea will inhabit the rebuilt house gladly."- So the fea isn't concerned with details on the molecular level at all, as long as the house has pretty much the correct size and shape.
Bruce
Relistening to the last two classes (NoME 18 and 19) on the problems associated with re-building bodies for dead elves. The problem came up that even if the Valar made new bodies as best they could, there would still be differences at the molecular (er, nassi) level:
"But the loremasters tell us that they may be in themselves not wholly and exactly equivalent ..."
The class discussion went on to say how the new hroa might not be perfectly fitted to the fea, because of very tiny distinctions - e.g. the exact numbers of molecules, or different isotopes. But I think this line of thinking introduces problems far beyond reincarnation - that the new hroa might not fit the fea because some atoms are in different places. The problem I see that that our atoms don't stay the same anyway - I eat a taco, new atoms get incorporated into my hroa. I cut my fingernails (or Beren loses a hand), old atoms get removed. So if our fear are so picky about exact atoms, we will never be comfortable in our constantly changing hroar. It's the old Theseus' ship problem - if I swap out the planks of the ship, is it the same ship, or if my cells divide and old cells die, am I the same me (or if one sentient android dies and they reprogram the body, while the old memories and personality get put into a new magically formed body, which is the real Vision)?
I do see one possible solution. If I were an elf that died, and the Valar built a new hroa for my fea, but accidentally included a taco, my fea might object - "Hey, what's up with the taco?!? This doesn't fit my pattern! I don't remember any tacos around here!". OTOH, if I just eat a taco, now my hroa has been changed into hroa+taco, but now my fea remembers the experience of eating the taco. So my fea, which has the memory of taco eating, is perfectly fit for hroa+taco, in a way that a hroa with no memory of taco eating would not be. So if a fea is not just a spirit wholly unaffected by the physical, but something that is constantly being molded and shaped by the experiences of the hroa, that fea is constantly going to be perfectly fitted to that hroa.
Of course, later on this question is essentially mooted: "that memory being in mind only and incorporeal will not be concerned with the history of the material used in the realization (so long as it is fitted for this purpose) but with the form only. Therefore the fea will inhabit the rebuilt house gladly."- So the fea isn't concerned with details on the molecular level at all, as long as the house has pretty much the correct size and shape.
Bruce
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