of melting and magic and metals

[Frosty of Forochel]

I had never considered the melting of the shard before, but I now see it as a kind of prefiguring of the eventual destruction of the Ring: the power of the evil that can only be broken and unmade by melting. and just as in that case, Frodo heals, but with lingering lasting effects.

But the suggestion of Elrond melting it within Frodo in the course of healing is very intriguing and one which might answer another thing that's bothered me for years, the most curious detail for me of this whole scene: the Ring has been put on a new chain. Why? It seems it would be safer not to handle it and to just leave it alone. But what if the elf magic involved in the unmaking of the morgul shard has the secondary effect of unmaking the very chain upon which the Ring rode? that would then necessitate the replacement of a new chain for the Ring. I can conceive of no good reason for it to have been swapped apart from necessity.

 

[Arnthro]

I'm just going off my head because it is early where I'm at, so I don't want to look up text.... but I'm pretty sure Frodo has just had the ring in his pocket from the Shire to Rivendell. Here in Rivendell will be the first and I guess only chain.

 

[Frosty of Forochel]

I'm just going off my head because it is early where I'm at, so I don't want to look up text.... but I'm pretty sure Frodo has just had the ring in his pocket from the Shire to Rivendell. Here in Rivendell will be the first and I guess only chain.

I haven’t had time to fully check, but I know in “Many Meetings” it’s described as a “new chain”.so the question is new in relation to what?

 

[Frosty of Forochel]

Okay, I’ve just checked and even though he does still keep the Ring in his pocket in Book I, it is also on a chain.

“He shut his eyes and struggled for awhile; but resistance became unbearable, and at last he slowly drew out the chain, and slipped the Ring on the forefinger of his left hand.” - A Knife in the Dark

 

[JJ48]

I believe when Gandalf is talking to Frodo at the beginning of the book, he says something like, "Bilbo said he'd find it slipping off his finger suddenly, that's why I've always kept it on its chain."

Knowing that Frodo's fire won't even heat up the Ring, while being chucked in a volcano melts it completely, can we determine a range for the specific heat of ring-gold?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Oooo. This is the sort of thing I thrive on. Gandalf states that Frodo's small fire could not harm even ordinary gold, which indicates that the melting point of the ring is somewhere above that. Gold has a melting point of about 1948ºF, and magma, an upper range temperature of 2400ºF. This might seem to put the temperature required to destroy the ring somewhere between 2000ºF and 2400ºF, but wait... there's a problem:

A coal-fired forge can reach temperatures of 3500ºF, and since everyone is pretty certain that merely tossing the ring into a forge won't do it, indicating that the temperature required must be even hotter. Now, Mt. Doom could be magically hotter than a normal volcano, but let us at least try to figure out how this might be done. The Earth's mantle gets to around 7000ºF where it mingles with the outer core, so what if Sauron was somehow able to directly access heat of that intensity? That would ostensibly put our ring's melting point between 3500°F and 7000°F.

But.... this also kinda depends on how high above the magma Frodo and Sam are standing. The surface of the sun is a bit over 9000°F and if you came within 5 million miles of it, you'd burn to a crisp. In a space suit.

Through a long series of annoying (and very rough) calculations, it seems that if the drop were about 100 ft, they could have survived about ten minutes. If it were 20 feet, they would be dead in seconds.

So... yeah... between 3500°F and 7000°F ... maybe.

 

[Arnthro]

Okay, I’ve just checked and even though he does still keep the Ring in his pocket in Book I, it is also on a chain.

“He shut his eyes and struggled for awhile; but resistance became unbearable, and at last he slowly drew out the chain, and slipped the Ring on the forefinger of his left hand.” - A Knife in the Dark

I totally missed that the ring had been on a chain with Frodo this entire time.

 

[Zephen12]

Okay, but why the “new chain”? What was wrong with the old chain? I always assumed it was just getting an upgrade, a sturdier and more reliable chain for the road ahead. But is there an implication that the other chain was not fit for the task, or that it was somehow undone?

 

[Anthony Lawther]

Oooo. This is the sort of thing I thrive on. Gandalf states that Frodo's small fire could not harm even ordinary gold, which indicates that the melting point of the ring is somewhere above that. Gold has a melting point of about 1948ºF, and magma, an upper range temperature of 2400ºF. This might seem to put the temperature required to destroy the ring somewhere between 2000ºF and 2400ºF, but wait... there's a problem:

A coal-fired forge can reach temperatures of 3500ºF, and since everyone is pretty certain that merely tossing the ring into a forge won't do it, indicating that the temperature required must be even hotter. Now, Mt. Doom could be magically hotter than a normal volcano, but let us at least try to figure out how this might be done. The Earth's mantle gets to around 7000ºF where it mingles with the outer core, so what if Sauron was somehow able to directly access heat of that intensity? That would ostensibly put our ring's melting point between 3500°F and 7000°F.

But.... this also kinda depends on how high above the magma Frodo and Sam are standing. The surface of the sun is a bit over 9000°F and if you came within 5 million miles of it, you'd burn to a crisp. In a space suit.

Through a long series of annoying (and very rough) calculations, it seems that if the drop were about 100 ft, they could have survived about ten minutes. If it were 20 feet, they would be dead in seconds.

So... yeah... between 3500°F and 7000°F ... maybe.

Interesting approach. How hot do you think dragon-fire would be? Even that was questionable as to whether it would destroy the One ring.

Another factor to consider is the relative density of gold and magma. If the gold is likely to sink in magma, no matter how slowly, then any volcano should be sufficient.

I always got the sense that not just any volcano would do, that it needed to be Mt Doom. This then hints at a metaphysical element to the requirements, and maybe Mt Doom is a spiritual hot-spot as well as a physical hot-spot. It might help explain Sauron's selection of Mordor in the first place, and his return there, multiple times, after the fall of Numenor. After all, with the North Kingdom defeated and the Elves of Gil-galad all but eliminated, Angmar might have been a better choice for a stronghold, even better than Dol Goldur.

 

[amysrevenge]

It could be as simple as a bunch of Noldor looking aghast at a janky old chain (according to their standards) and replacing it with something more appropriate.

 

[JJ48]

Oooo. This is the sort of thing I thrive on. Gandalf states that Frodo's small fire could not harm even ordinary gold, which indicates that the melting point of the ring is somewhere above that. Gold has a melting point of about 1948ºF, and magma, an upper range temperature of 2400ºF. This might seem to put the temperature required to destroy the ring somewhere between 2000ºF and 2400ºF, but wait... there's a problem:

A coal-fired forge can reach temperatures of 3500ºF, and since everyone is pretty certain that merely tossing the ring into a forge won't do it, indicating that the temperature required must be even hotter. Now, Mt. Doom could be magically hotter than a normal volcano, but let us at least try to figure out how this might be done. The Earth's mantle gets to around 7000ºF where it mingles with the outer core, so what if Sauron was somehow able to directly access heat of that intensity? That would ostensibly put our ring's melting point between 3500°F and 7000°F.

But.... this also kinda depends on how high above the magma Frodo and Sam are standing. The surface of the sun is a bit over 9000°F and if you came within 5 million miles of it, you'd burn to a crisp. In a space suit.

Through a long series of annoying (and very rough) calculations, it seems that if the drop were about 100 ft, they could have survived about ten minutes. If it were 20 feet, they would be dead in seconds.

So... yeah... between 3500°F and 7000°F ... maybe.

I was asking about the specific heat rather than the melting point, but we may not have enough data points for that. Thanks for the calculations, though!

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I was asking about the specific heat rather than the melting point, but we may not have enough data points for that. Thanks for the calculations, though!

It isn't really a matter of data points so much as changing mass. Since the mass of the Ring changes, it isn't really possible to calculate a specific heat. Of course, the change in mass could just be in the mind of the bearer, meaning that if the Ring has the same mass as one made of gold, it would have a specific heat of somewhere around 32 J/(kg*K)... I think... EDIT: 32-65, rather, based on the calculations above.

 

[Jim Deutch]

It could be as simple as a bunch of Noldor looking aghast at a janky old chain (according to their standards) and replacing it with something more appropriate.

There is another difference between the new chain and the old. I don't have the book in front of me, so I can't bring up actual quotes, but the old chain had a clasp; I think this is referred to in The Shadow of the Past, where Frodo unclasps the ring from its chain to throw it in his fire. Later, there is no mention of a clasp wrt the new chain; Sam has to pull the chain over Frodo's head (after a confusing reference to unclasping Frodo's tunic) in order to take it from his (apparently) lifeless body. We'll get there in a few more years.

The new chain may well be more beautiful, but it is also more secure.

 

[Arnthro]

I didn't re-read every word in Book One for this search and I do not have a digital copy but for what it's worth these were the chain references I could find, repeating the one Frosty of Forochel found and posted above.
(I feel like a moron, or even more of one than I already knew that I was, thinking Frodo had the Ring in his pocket sans chain this entire time with all these mentions...ha)
In all the chain and Ring removals of the chain, there doesn't seem to be any description of Frodo fastening the Ring back to the chain, not that there needs to be any, but I just thought I'd mention that.
------------------

"Into the envelope he slipped his golden ring, and its fine chain, and then sealed it and addressed it to Frodo." (A Long Expected Party)

"Frodo took it from his breeches-pocket, where it was clasped to a chain that hung from his belt. He unfastened it and handed it slowly to the wizard." (The Shadow of the Past)

" 'Show me the precious Ring!' he said suddenly in the midst of the story; and Frodo, to his own astonishment, drew out the chain from his pocket, and unfastening the Ring handed it at once to Tom. " (In The House of Tom Bombadil)

"He felt the Ring on its chain...." (At The Sign of the Prancing Pony)

"...and at last he slowly drew out the chain, and slipped the Ring on the forefinger of his left hand." (A Knife In The Dark)

 

[Arnthro]

I'm thinking what Jim is thinking, maybe Elrond decided the Ring shouldn't have a notch on the chain to fasten and unfasten so to be removed easily and they decided to have the Ring on a solid chain.

 

[Jim Deutch]

I didn't re-read every word in Book One for this search and I do not have a digital copy but for what it's worth these were the chain references I could find

This has been discussed in the "Main Forum" thread "War of the Ring--Ring String Sling Thing?"

(some quotes from the book and a list of mentions of the Ring's chain...)

In particular, we found this in the next volume, when Frodo is lying, apparently dead, just outside Shelob's Lair:

He stooped. Very gently he undid the clasp at the neck and slipped his hand inside Frodo's tunic; then with his other hand raising the head, he kissed the cold forehead, and softly drew the chain over it.

A bit confusing, but once I realized it was Frodo's tunic that Sam unclasped at the neck, it became clear that the new chain had no clasp; it cannot be opened (and the Elvish chain is presumably pretty much unbreakable).

This conclusion was surprising to me, to say the least: I'd never figured that out before. It leads to some later problems, since the Ring is prominent, but the chain is never mentioned, in the final confrontation with Gollum at the Cracks of Doom. We have to conclude that Frodo was wearing the Ring with the chain still dangling from it!

Well, we'll get to this scene in another decade or two, and then we can get Corey's opinion on it.

 

[Arnthro]

Ha! Yes! In a decade or two. Super interesting!! Thanks for the directions to the other thread

 

[NotACat]

This conclusion was surprising to me, to say the least: I'd never figured that out before. It leads to some later problems, since the Ring is prominent, but the chain is never mentioned, in the final confrontation with Gollum at the Cracks of Doom. We have to conclude that Frodo was wearing the Ring with the chain still dangling from it!

There is a mention but it's not exactly helpful:

With a violent heave Sam rose up. At once he drew his sword; but he could do nothing. Gollum and Frodo were locked together. Gollum was tearing at his master, trying to get at the chain and the Ring.

But the Ring never becomes visible: in the next paragraph Frodo is clasping it through his leather shirt. That's it until he arrives at the Crack of Doom where there is no mention of the chain.

 

[JJ48]

This conclusion was surprising to me, to say the least: I'd never figured that out before. It leads to some later problems, since the Ring is prominent, but the chain is never mentioned, in the final confrontation with Gollum at the Cracks of Doom. We have to conclude that Frodo was wearing the Ring with the chain still dangling from it!

I never thought about it much, but it makes sense. Bilbo and Frodo kept it on its chain so it wouldn't get lost, and presumably didn't bother to unclasp the chain and remove the Ring when they wanted to avoid unwelcome visitors quickly!