Alice Mead
Member
I feel obliged to mention, in connection with the orc question, that human pilots fighting other humans have gleefully counted kills since the beginning of combat aviation (which was in WWI, and thus potentially within Tolkien's knowledge). Neither I nor Tolkien am completely comfortable with this, but I think it provides a possible real world precedent for the orc counting contest. I am not saying that Tolkien based Gimli and Legolas' contest on this phenomenon, but, before we dismiss their behavior as impossible in any world where orcs may possess free will "no matter how irredeemable, no matter how dominated" we should remember what our own species has proved capable of. Of course, this makes Gimli and Legolas into far more flawed heroes than they were meant to be, but it is still an interesting lens to view their conduct through.
Another assumption that seems to go unchallenged in these discussions is that, whatever the origin of the orcs is, everyone important must know it. I think it is actually highly plausible that there would be differing schools of thought on the subject. Thus, one can have one's cake and eat it too. Whether or not they are correct, Gimli and Legolas certainly seem to operate under the assumption that orcs are created and therefore wholly evil, wheras Frodo, when he makes the famous comment to Sam, is clearly operating under the assumption that they must be corrupted Elves (which, given that that explanation makes it into Bilbo's Translations was probably what Bilbo taught him to believe). In the end, however who can know for sure? The Valar might know, and through them, Gandalf, and through him, the Wise of Middle Earth, but I do not think this is nearly as much of a given as many seem to assume. After all, the Valar are, on multiple occasions, ignorant of the doings of Melkor, most notably in the lead up to the Darkening and in the time of the Dark Rider at Qui Vyenin, (sorry I have no idea how to spell that, one of the downfalls of a purely auditory exposure to the Silmarilion.) Furthermore, I think that the elves at least would have a vested interest in denying that any of their kind could ever be capable of the evil which orcs perpetrate.
Another assumption that seems to go unchallenged in these discussions is that, whatever the origin of the orcs is, everyone important must know it. I think it is actually highly plausible that there would be differing schools of thought on the subject. Thus, one can have one's cake and eat it too. Whether or not they are correct, Gimli and Legolas certainly seem to operate under the assumption that orcs are created and therefore wholly evil, wheras Frodo, when he makes the famous comment to Sam, is clearly operating under the assumption that they must be corrupted Elves (which, given that that explanation makes it into Bilbo's Translations was probably what Bilbo taught him to believe). In the end, however who can know for sure? The Valar might know, and through them, Gandalf, and through him, the Wise of Middle Earth, but I do not think this is nearly as much of a given as many seem to assume. After all, the Valar are, on multiple occasions, ignorant of the doings of Melkor, most notably in the lead up to the Darkening and in the time of the Dark Rider at Qui Vyenin, (sorry I have no idea how to spell that, one of the downfalls of a purely auditory exposure to the Silmarilion.) Furthermore, I think that the elves at least would have a vested interest in denying that any of their kind could ever be capable of the evil which orcs perpetrate.