Of Orc counting and incomplete knowledge

Odola

Well-Known Member
As far as I understand a Dibbuk is a soul or spirit of a dead human. As far as I am concerned in catholic teaching deamons never were human but are fallen angels. But that there are deamons in catholic worldview is clear
The theoretical possibility of a condemed person's soul acting similar to a deamon is not ruled out. As such Catholics are strickly forbidden to take part in spiritistic sessions, as there is no possibility to conjure a "saved person", neither from Heaven nor from Purgatory. Those are beyond the reach of any medium and can appear on Earth only with God's special permission on their own, but can never be "conjured down" against their and God's will. As such a conjured ghost is either a deamon or an already condemed irredimable soul which serves the devil (and which most often just mascarades as the intended conjured dead person, which is - in most cases - assumed saved). Nothing any Catholic should ever try to get in contact with.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Exactly.That's why i was asking.If one has first to kill an orc, to set free his soul , then he rejects the call of Mandos and becomes a poltergeist... he might still be a threat to people.His ghost could in theory even return in a formerly soulless, animal-like being or counterfeit.

To be marred... that would incorporate the orcs spirit as well, not just his body would it? The orcs are Fear and hroar, not Ealar and Fanar, even in spirit form they would be part of Arda, not Beings from outside that have just entered Arda like the Ainur.Then some person would have to heal the orcs spirit, or he would still be sick and could not be reached.Eru could do that, maybe an exorcist with the help of the holy ghost/secret fire?
 
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Jim Deutch

Well-Known Member
I feel obliged to mention, in connection with the orc question, that human pilots fighting other humans have gleefully counted kills since the beginning of combat aviation (which was in WWI, and thus potentially within Tolkien's knowledge). Neither I nor Tolkien am completely comfortable with this, but I think it provides a possible real world precedent for the orc counting contest. I am not saying that Tolkien based Gimli and Legolas' contest on this phenomenon, but, before we dismiss their behavior as impossible in any world where orcs may possess free will "no matter how irredeemable, no matter how dominated" we should remember what our own species has proved capable of. Of course, this makes Gimli and Legolas into far more flawed heroes than they were meant to be, but it is still an interesting lens to view their conduct through.
I agree. The notion that Orcs can't have Fear ("souls") simply because then they couldn't be killed without mercy fails, if the fact that they have Fear is simply unknown to the killers. They may be just plain Wrong to do so, and I have no problem with third-age Heroes making mistakes so serious that they commit genocide on a potentially-redeemable people. How would they know it was wrong? There are plenty of other real-world examples besides fighter pilots, for instance Europeans committing genocide against non-Christian indigenous peoples.

Of course, there are other theological problems with Orcs having Fear: where would the Fear come from? Only Eru can make a Fea, and it seems very improbable that He would create pre-corrupted Fear for Orcs. . . There is record of many attempts by JRRT to resolve these issues. Some are discussed in the last session (28) of the Morgoth's Ring class.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
The problem is, how much is Eru activ in making fear or did he make a system that just works on, even after his removal.I think ifvthe latter is the case, them he us not directly responsible any longer if one of his angelic powers uses his free will, becomes evil and abuses the system, including fear.As long as i see Orcs as sick, rather than actively evil i also don't really have a problem.
 
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