Of Orcs and Their Torches

A

Alice Mead

Member
So, why do y'all think the orcs consistently carry torches in this show? The obvious TV logic reason is to provide light for the viewers, but given how careful the writers have been with lore overall, and the fact that Third Age orcs are said to have "night eyes" (Aragorn on the Anduin) and, presumably, not need torches, I'm at a loss to find an in-world reason for this. Furthermore, the orcs of the Second Age, even in the show, are clearly depicted as more badass and elf-like than their Third Age descendants. Wouldn't this increased puissance strengthen, rather than lessen their night vision? Up until episode 7, I had always fallen back onthe excuse that the torches were for the benefit of their human minions (I thank there may have been one instance early on that doesn't fit this pattern. When Theo was in the well I believe we saw orcs with torches, but I had forgotten about that until just now.) Tangientially, this is my explanation for the line of torches marching towards Helm's Deep, as we know Dunlendings formed a sizable part of that force. In episode 7, though, we see a small party of orcs who apppear to have no humans with them searching for survivors in the woods. There goes my rationalization. Anyone else considered this?
 
Alice Mead said:
So, why do y'all think the orcs consistently carry torches in this show? The obvious TV logic reason is to provide light for the viewers, but given how careful the writers have been with lore overall, and the fact that Third Age orcs are said to have "night eyes" (Aragorn on the Anduin) and, presumably, not need torches, I'm at a loss to find an in-world reason for this. Furthermore, the orcs of the Second Age, even in the show, are clearly depicted as more badass and elf-like than their Third Age descendants. Wouldn't this increased puissance strengthen, rather than lessen their night vision? Up until episode 7, I had always fallen back onthe excuse that the torches were for the benefit of their human minions (I thank there may have been one instance early on that doesn't fit this pattern. When Theo was in the well I believe we saw orcs with torches, but I had forgotten about that until just now.) Tangientially, this is my explanation for the line of torches marching towards Helm's Deep, as we know Dunlendings formed a sizable part of that force. In episode 7, though, we see a small party of orcs who apppear to have no humans with them searching for survivors in the woods. There goes my rationalization. Anyone else considered this?
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As far I remember orcs/goblins in the Hobbit do use torches, but that is in the cavern where there is no starlight.
 
It's like plot armour with stormtroopers i fear...
If they need Orcs who get burned by sunlight then they're all of a sudden extremely sun-allergetic, if they need them to be not they suddenly can endure far more sunlight without a problem. Similar with nightvision... if they need a dark and spooky scene then Orcs can see perfectly in very dark, but if they need humans to take advantage of darkness and fire during a fighting scend then all of a sudden orcs are very nightblind and need to carry torches...

A bit annoying sometimes.
 
I was wondering about the torches too. First, how good is elven vision in the dark? I think there are references to them having decent sight under starlight, especially since they first awoke and lived for years under just the stars, but I believe they use lights inside and in particularly dark places. If that is correct, then at night in the cloud-covered Mordor they might need torches too.

Next I did a text search in LotR for "torch" and there are many references to orcs using torches. At Helm's Deep, it describes the hosts of Isengard advancing with torches, and then there's a line of dialog from the men at the Hornburg that they "loosed every arrow... and filled the Dike with Orcs... but we have taught them not to carry torches."

Then in Cirith Ungol, orcs use torches when Sam is hiding from them in Shelob's lair and in the tower itself. I think a better comparison, though, is that orcs are also carrying torches on open ground in Mordor when Sam and Frodo are making their way towards Mt. Doom. It's mentioned several times in that portion of the text, but the single clearest quote is "The orcs were going at a great pace. Those in the foremost files bore torches. On they came, red flames in the dark, swiftly growing. Now Sam too bowed his head, hoping that it would hide his face when the torches reached them..."

So, apparently orcs prefer to use torches when they want clear vision, even if they have adequate night vision without it. The show is being true to Tolkien's lore on that.
 
The way night vision works is that you do need some ambient light to see, no matter how good your vision is. Cats eyes glow in the dark, but even a cat can't see in pitch black. So, it's not a matter of whether or not a group needs to carry torches, but rather how dark it has to be before torches are necessary. Everyone needs light at some point.

I do not need to turn lights on to navigate my house at night. But at the bottom of Zion Canyon, I cannot see my hand in front of my face at night, and cannot navigate without a flashlight.

Shooting dark/night scenes presents some challenges. One is that whatever lighting you use can look 'flat', so it's important to have reflective surfaces to give depth to your night shots. The easiest way to do this is to incorporate water into a scene. So, puddles, rain, a stream - something that makes things wet and reflective.

And of course the other issue is that the scene can be too dark, so that the audience has trouble seeing what is happening on screen.

I have to imagine that the use of torches in many of the scenes is to give some interesting lighting choices. And as long as the scene is meant to be very dark, the torches make sense. So, a lot of ash in the air after a volcanic eruption would reduce visibility significantly, regardless of night vision abilities. And if it doesn't look like it's really that dark...well, of course not. If it did, we wouldn't be able to see clearly, either. The entire battle of Helm's Deep was fairly brightly lit, for taking place at night. Shelob's layer was brightly lit as well. We're supposed to imagine it's darker.
 
Helm's deep is a bad example as Sarumab's Uruk-hai state to have bad nightvision in comparison to the northerner and Mordor Orcs who are stated to havevextremely good nightvision. All other examples are, i think, as Odola said, Orcs need torches in places without natural,light such as caves or mines, they might carry them with them when entering such locations.
 
Haerangil said:
Helm's deep is a bad example as Sarumab's Uruk-hai state to have bad nightvision in comparison to the northerner and Mordor Orcs who are stated to havevextremely good nightvision. All other examples are, i think, as Odola said, Orcs need torches in places without natural,light such as caves or mines, they might carry them with them when entering such locations.
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Or Mordor hang over in smoke...

But that is interesting as it would support the idea that default orcs descent mainly from elves only: "Saruman's Uruk-hai state to have bad nightvision" and they also endure the sunlight without problems and we know "Saruman's Uruk-hai" are a result of crossing orcs with humans.
Humans are the Children of the Sun - as such this would add up: mixed in human = + in sun endurance & - in nightvision
 
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Well, seems like by crossing the bloodlines some things get lost.Waht seems a little strange is to see human-orcs obviously being bigger and stronger than Elf-orcs, though that might be due to the fading and the marring of Arda.
 
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Haerangil said:
Well, seems like by crossing the bloodlines some things get lost.Waht seems a little strange is to see human-orcs obviously being bigger and stronger than Elf-orcs, though that might be due to the fading and the marring of Arda.
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Were the elves in the original Tolkien's conception not a little more nimble than strong than they were descibed later?
 
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Yeah sure, but the idea of half-orcs comes from far later times, except if you count the Maeglin and some Noldoli intermixed with the Gongs from lost tales in. When he invented the Uruk-hai the more diminuitive and nimble fairy-elves (which existed in th earlier stories despite whatever corey claims theres no evidence for it) were long gone.
 
Haerangil said:
Yeah sure, but the idea of half-orcs comes from far later times, except if you count the Maeglin and some Noldoli intermixed with the Gongs from lost tales in. When he invented the Uruk-hai the more diminuitive and nimble fairy-elves (which existed in th earlier stories despite whatever corey claims theres no evidence for it) were long gone.
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Still the idea that mixing in human blood would make them stronger might have lingered.
And there is always hybrid vigour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis) to be counted in.
 
Haerangil said:
I just found it strange as generally elves are mostly considered tougher.At last High elves...
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I think this a was deliberate later change on Tolkien's side. But I think this change has not affected all the areas previously already conceived by him. But still the Avari might have been weaker than the later High elves.
 
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Haerangil said:
But weaker than humans? Equal i could understand...
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Not sure.
1. The first generation had a lot of children which drained them.
2. They were mostly bereft of light.
3. They lived in shadow and fear.
4. Plenty of them were ancient.

Actually it would make sense to assume those elves who accepted the protection of the Valar and the lead of Oromë to be no longer "orcifiable".
As we later see the "Eldar" enthralled but not any more orcified.
 
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Haerangil said:
When he invented the Uruk-hai the more diminuitive and nimble fairy-elves (which existed in th earlier stories despite whatever corey claims theres no evidence for it) were long gone.
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Yes, but the question was about the ORIGINAL PERCEPTION.
 
I think we answered that to the extend possible. Yes Orcs can see in the dark pretty well, but need lightsources in complete darkness and can see better inndarkness with lightsources.Except for Sarumans Orca who have bad nightvision. That seems to be it pretty much.
 
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