On Amras: Some Thoughts and Questions.

And elves might be particularly susceptible to PTSD-type flashbacks, since they have long and keen memories.
Definitely. Elves' memories are apparently extremely vivid and lifelike, compared to ours, and do not fade with time. I think the Valar probably can heal, or mostly heal, trauma in Elves -- surely those in Mandos, and hopefully those who survive, too -- but Elves in Middle-earth are probably just stuck with whatever trauma and PTSD they have.

Sources of trauma may differ somewhat from Humans, though. Elves are less susceptible to fear and trauma that arises from bodily harm, compared to us. They're not immune, but they are less likely to be overwhelmed by a bodily response.

On the other hand, if a particular trauma is a spiritual wound or the result of such, that's a different case, and may have completely different effects as well.
 
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We mentioned earlier about how Morgoth suffers physical wounds that he can never heal and speculated on various reasons.

Maybe Elves have the same or a similar kind of problem with mental and spiritual wounds?
 
Just wanted to make clear that if we can't come to something resembling consensus on this point, we will be plotting out Amras' death this season.

That said, we should try to establish a few things for certain.

1) Offing Amras now will significantly alter the power dynamic amongst the sons of Feanor. The hosts themselves were talking about setting up something of a rivalry between Maedhros, Feanor's heir apparent, and Curufin, heir to Feanor's skill and mindset. With Caranthir and Celegorm aligning with Curufin and Maglor aligning with Maedhros, Maedhros seems a bit outnumbered here, even if Maedhros has plurality of support amongst their rank and file followers. Amras seems like the swing vote. If Amras isn't there, Caranthir has a significant advantage.

2) There is no reason why Amras needs to be a one-note character for the entire first age. Depression doesn't work like that. Nor does he have to be vehemently opposed or in support of the Oath at the time it is re-affirmed. It is still fairly on in the grieving process, and he may be just kind of functioning on auto-pilot.
 
What why is the default to kill him? That makes no sense whatsoever and is completely unnecessary! Where did this come from?! What is the reason for forcing us to do this? What possible reason could there be?

Tolkien never said Amros died early. I don't understand why this concept has ever even been on the table, let alone why we are going to be forced to do it. That's too extreme! I don't think anyone on this forum has actually said they supported it.

We've already brainstormed a ZILLION possible ways Amros can do interesting and unique and distinctive and tragic things in the rest of the story. Tolkien gave him the unique and irreplaceable action of starting the Third Kinslaying. Why is all of that not good enough?? Who is forcing us to do this and why??


If this bizarre and horrible threat had been explained at any time in the past we would have had time to decide something. Instead we have been brainstorming casually in 3-4 different disorganized threads and were NEVER told at any time that there was some insane impossible deadline before we would be forced to drastically and horribly mutilate the story! It'll ruin the storyline!

How can we possibly come to a "consensus" before the next podcast this Friday when we have this discussion totally disorganized and spread out over 4 different threads? Why is this extreme deadline being set out now, when there is no time left to make any decision? Why on Earth is a "final" decision required this week for scenes that are many, many Seasons away? We can't possibly plot out his entire character arc until the end of the First Age NOW, before any other detail for the later seasons has been decided at all. That's impossible!


This would accomplish nothing except completely ruin the Third Kinslaying and destroy the characters of Maedhros and Maglor by totally eliminating the concept that they ever felt remorse whatsoever over the Oath or Kinslayings. Is the goal now to eliminate all redeeming feature and make them both one-dimensional evil goons? Because that'll be the result if they get NO character arc for the entire First Age. They will be no less evil and awful than Celegorm and Curufin.



Caranthir isn't being given a unique story, we've talked about not developing his character much because the Hosts said they didn't want to. Are we going to be forced to kill him now too?
 
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Firstly, there is no catastrophe, and if you have questions about the discussion about Amras and his potential death, I recommend that you listen to the most recent podcast first.

What I will say is that the request was made in the last session for us to make a cogent case for what Amras' story is going to be in order to argue against his death, an idea that was floated in that discussion.

And while I realize that a lot of ideas have been brought up here, which is great, I do think we should try to consolidate them into something more cohesive.
 
These kind of sudden DO IT NOW!!!!! ultimatums/threats that come out of nowhere always give me a panic attack. And Why was this gigantic ultimatum not mentioned until now, when it is way too late??


1. Why is starting the Third Kinslaying not important? Do the Hosts plan to just get rid of the Third Kinslaying? Or are they planning to eliminate the entire character arc for Maedhros and the entire character arc for Maglor and just collapse them into being exactly the same Celegorm/Curufin?


And while I realize that a lot of ideas have been brought up here, which is great, I do think we should try to consolidate them into something more cohesive
2. So what specifically do we have to do? Please tell us.

Do we have to write a character plan for [however many] seasons? If so how detailed?

Or do we have to drop all but one of our suggestions and pick only one? Were any of our suggestions specifically rejected?

Or is there a minimum number of historically significant things we have to suggest for him to do? How history-changing does each one have to be?


3. Do you have an idea about how we can come to an agreement in a discussion that's involving so many participants, who don't all even necessarily have time to post every single week? A poll or something?

4. Is the deadline this Friday?



I don't think anyone is still arguing in favor of making Amros a one-note depression automaton and I didn't think anyone on this board actually said they do want to kill him. Isn't that already a "consensus"?

Most of our ideas don't even contradict each other and there's no reason we can't do almost all of them. I thought there wasn't much disagreement over most of the suggestions anymore.
 
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Okay, a few things:

1) The next session will be on Friday March 9th. It will be discussing the Sun/Moon, and the death of Fëanor. So, while Amras might stand out in his reaction to the demand that they all retake the Oath, he certainly isn't going to die in that episode. We likely *will* discuss his role in the rest of the Season, though. There is no ultimatum nor rush here.

2) There is a reason I left the thread with Amras' name in the title separate. I wanted people to be able to find this discussion, rather than 'hiding' it within other conversations. If we want to decide on Amras' storyline, it should probably be here.

3) When the possibility of Amras' death came up in the session, the Hosts did not want to rush to a decision, which was why they said 'discuss it' so there would be a plan for Amras' role in the story moving forward. If there is no plan for him, they want to finish up his story line this season (which likely means death-by-suicide). Amras' role in the 3rd kinslaying is considered insufficient reason to keep him around, as it's *one* action 8 seasons from now, not a complete story. Which is why it's good we've been discussing ways his story could play out, and roles he can have in other storylines (dwarves, men, battles, etc).

4) Tolkien wrote very little about Amras. Tolkien wrote nothing about the effect of Amrod's death in the shipburning on Amras. By choosing to kill Amrod, we are (perforce) making up the rest of Amras' story. The alternative is to do nothing with it, which means...why did we kill Amrod, again? An action like that needs to have consequences.
 
if you have questions about the discussion about Amras and his potential death, I recommend that you listen to the most recent podcast first.
I don't usually have 2.5 hours of contiguous/uninterrupted spare time in a day to do that. And sometimes the vids won't load for me, or load so slowly it takes 5 hours to watch. I will try to watch as much of the podcasts as I can tonight but please summarize the demand/requirement. Please tell us what we have to do and what is the deadline?

EDIT: I also have trouble sometimes following Corey because he kind of talks fast sometimes and so do the other two. I have to replay the same 5 minutes a many times. I've spent a half hour replaying part of the Balrog discussion and gave up on comprehending it.



What percentage of agreement between us is required? 51%? 60%? 75%? 90%? What about the forumites who were in the discussions earlier but don't vote in time for the deadline, do they count as "consensus" or "disagreement" or neither?

1) The next session will be on Friday March 9th. It will be discussing the Sun/Moon, and the death of Fëanor. So, while Amras might stand out in his reaction to the demand that they all retake the Oath, he certainly isn't going to die in that episode. We likely *will* discuss his role in the rest of the Season, though. There is no ultimatum nor rush here.
Then what day is the deadline? How much time do we have before they kill him?


If none of our suggestions for what to do with Amros are good enough for the Hosts then I think we need to get rid of Amrod's death. Killing off Amros would utterly wreck Maedhros and Maglor as characters so let's just forget the whole burning Amrod thing. It's not remotely close to important enough to kill off Amros over it. We won't have to rewrite very much of our Ep 8 script outline to get rid of that part, since it only affects 3 scenes. We can replace the conversation between the two twins [about going back to Nerdanel] with the scene that we didn't have time for in Ep 8, Cirdan and Celeborn discussing the burnt remains of the ships. We had already started talking about what they would say and what Cirdan would conclude so it won't be hard. We can make Haakon happier by getting rid of the shipwreck scene too.
 
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I don't usually have 2.5 hours of contiguous/uninterrupted spare time in a day to do that. And sometimes the vids won't load for me, or load so slowly it takes 5 hours to watch. I will try to watch as much of the podcasts as I can tonight but please summarize the demand/requirement. Please tell us what we have to do and what is the deadline?

EDIT: I also have trouble sometimes following Corey because he kind of talks fast sometimes and so do the other two. I have to replay the same 5 minutes a many times. I've spent a half hour replaying part of the Balrog discussion and gave up on comprehending it.



What percentage of agreement between us is required? 51%? 60%? 75%? 90%? What about the forumites who were in the discussions earlier but don't vote in time for the deadline, do they count as "consensus" or "disagreement" or neither?


Then what day is the deadline? How much time do we have before they kill him?


If none of our suggestions for what to do with Amros are good enough for the Hosts then I think we need to get rid of Amrod's death. Killing off Amros would utterly wreck Maedhros and Maglor as characters so let's just forget the whole burning Amrod thing. It's not remotely close to important enough to kill off Amros over it. We won't have to rewrite very much of our Ep 8 script outline to get rid of that part, since it only affects 3 scenes. We can replace the conversation between the two twins [about going back to Nerdanel] with the scene that we didn't have time for in Ep 8, Cirdan and Celeborn discussing the burnt remains of the ships. We had already started talking about what they would say and what Cirdan would conclude so it won't be hard. We can make Haakon happier by getting rid of the shipwreck scene too.

Faelivrin, with all due respect, I don't have time to explain every detail of a 2.5 hour conversation. This project already occupies about 2-3 hours of my week listening to the podcast (once live and once for a re-listen), 3-5 hours every other week recording the script discussions, and about 5+ hours a week editing video for easier consumption. That does not even include the time I spend on the forums or working on outlines/scripts. This is on top of working a full-time job, taking care of the house, and my pregnant wife. I'm not saying anyone has to put the amount of time in that I do, but please at least listen to what was actually said before treating it as if the sky is falling. Now, we are wasting time with this discussion that we could be using to work out a more solid idea of Amras' plot arc going forward. Can we talk about that rather than being upset about a decision that is not yet resolved?
 
As for the Third Kinslaying, the easiest way to preserve that storyline with Amras being absent would be to have Caranthir survive Doriath, and then give Amras' role to Caranthir, who would then die in the Havens.

I would prefer that Amras be present, and that we tell stories with him throughout the First Age. But I acknowledge that we *can* tell the story of the Third Kinslaying without making Maedhros or Maglor the character pushing for it, even without Amras there.

So, *knowing* that there is a work-around, I know that the Hosts are not going to be convinced by his role in that event; we need to show his contribution to the story over multiple seasons. In other words, we have to answer, 'Why Amras?'

The decision to kill off Amras this season has *not* been made yet - but it has been suggested, so it is possible that decision will be made.

If you are someone who works better with deadlines, then I would say that I will be compiling the discussion here into the powerpoint slides on Wednesday March 7th. So, we should have ideas before then. We don't need complete consensus - we can have several different ideas worked out. But, we can't have just have vague notions - it would have to be a storyline, that shows how Amras is different from his brothers. I think it would be more convincing if we have ideas on how to use Amras, rather than just 'Nooooo....don't kill him!!!!'

However, whether or not that will be discussed on March 9th or at a later time is not something I can promise - we'll have to wait and see.
 
@Nicholas Palazzo . I was trying to ask constructive questions about what to do, to start the conversation about what to do. I was hoping we could start talking about doing something. Starting with, what are we required to do? What do we need to do that we have not already done? In what way are our ideas not acceptable and what do we need to change? HOW do we create a consensus? Do we make a poll?


I am also listening to the podcast and it sounds to me, bleakly, that the Hosts really have already made up their minds 100% to kill him and are not at all open to any alternatives, no matter what we say. I hear Corey responding to every single suggestion (from the forum) and rejecting everything we have come up with so far. What does that leave us with? Not one of our ideas so far is good enough to consider even briefly? :(

Corey has also declared he intends to completely turn Maedhros' character story upside down and make him enthusiastic about the Third Kinslaying instead of reluctant. That's a bridge too far for me. I am not OK with Maedhros being a psycho. He's supposed to have character development and become somewhat sympathetic, not be a repeat of Eol or Curufin. Yuck.

Corey also sounded like he said "next time" (next podcast) like it is a deadline. I don't think he named any other deadline.



So ... it sounds like Corey says he is ONLY willing to accept one of two ideas, both of which sound very one-note and boring: either Amros becomes a psycho mindlessly loyal to the Oath and even more extreme/vicious than Curufin; or he becomes a total rebel who refuses to ever fulfill the Oath and never kills another elf ever again... somehow, even though the Oath is literally unbreakable in the books. Those are the only options Corey will allow. Either way, Corey and Dave say, he HAS to die "long" before the Havens and the Hosts are NOT willing to allow him to survive to the Havens, at all. :(

I'd rather argue for psychopath Amros than conscientious-objector Amros, if those are the only options we are allowed to pick from. Psychopath Amros is at least less of a contradiction of the Silmarillion. It also avoids undermining what we tried to write in the Ep 8 script (that Feanor's sons don't know if Amrod did damn himself to the Void by trying to go back West).

If Amros becomes a concientious objector and just breaks the Oath all the time... with no consequences?? that undermines the story that we killed Amrod for and demonstrates that anyone who does choose to fulfil the Oath is a monster, since breaking it is actually easy. I don't want to make the Oath easy to break. And again, I really don't want Maedhros and Maglor to be psychos. I actually like them as somewhat-sympathetic characters. And I don't know how Elrond (who I really like) could grow up to be any more well-adjusted than Maeglin did if his foster-father is a psychopath (like Eol seems to be) or any other flavor of totally vicious nutjob. I'm not sure how Elrond and Elros would survive at all if all the sons of Feanor are equally evil.

I am trying to resign myself to completely switching Amros and Caranthir's roles in all the stories and imagining Amros as one of the vicious no-regrets creepos who dies at Doriath and Caranthir as somebody who almost grows some remorse and dies at the Havens.

If we are only allowed to pick between those two story options (psycho and concientious objector), should I start a poll on them?
 
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Okay. So...this thread was started *after* that session. Everything that has been said here is us considering the question from there. We have not yet given any of this feedback to the Hosts.

And I agree, they went to some rather simple one-note options - that's why they left it up to us to really hash this out.

What I would like people to do is to articulate what role they would like Amras to play in the rest of the show. So, maybe starting with a psychological state/worldview, and then show how that would play out throughout the First Age. I will then have to figure out how to convey those ideas to the Hosts concisely.
 
@Nicholas Palazzo . I was trying to ask constructive questions about what to do, to start the conversation about what to do. I was hoping we could start talking about doing something. Starting with, what are we required to do? What do we need to do that we have not already done? In what way are our ideas not acceptable and what do we need to change? HOW do we create a consensus? Do we make a poll?

I don't think anything so formal is necessary, but having something to present to the hosts that a reasonable amount of us can agree upon would be better than a miasma of half-formed possibilities.
I am also listening to the podcast and it sounds to me, bleakly, that the Hosts really have already made up their minds 100% to kill him and are not at all open to any alternatives, no matter what we say. I hear Corey responding to every single suggestion (from the forum) and rejecting everything we have come up with so far. What does that leave us with? Not one of our ideas so far is good enough to consider even briefly? :(

I don't think it quite so certain as you if we can present something reasonably cohesive.

Corey has also declared he intends to completely turn Maedhros' character story upside down and make him enthusiastic about the Third Kinslaying instead of reluctant. That's a bridge too far for me. I am not OK with Maedhros being a psycho. He's supposed to be a little bit sympathetic, not a repeat of Eol or Curufin. Yuck.

This is a gross misrepresentation of what was said, and I'm not going to pretend it isn't. All that was said is that he doesn't want Maedhros to be convinced to participate in Kinslaying III by another party. That he wants him to go into it fully knowing that it is horrible and that it is wrong, but that Maedhros feels he has no choice. This is precisely his mindset when he and Maglor steal the Simarils from the host of the Valar, and is thus, not a change in his personality, but rather an acceleration to that point. Now, I think a valid argument can be made that since we will see Maedhros do this later, there is no need to repeat the same note, but that is a far cry from the claim that Maedhros is a psycho of the Eol or Curufin variety.

So ... Corey says he is ONLY willing to accept one of two ideas, both of which sound very one-note and boring: either Amros becomes a psycho mindlessly loyal to the Oath even more extreme/vicious than Curufin; or he becomes a total rebel who refuses to ever fulfill the Oath and never kills another elf ever again... somehow, even though the Oath is literally unbreakable in the books. Those are the only options Corey will allow. Either way, Corey and Dave say, he HAS to die "long" before the Havens and the Hosts are NOT willing to allow him to survive to the Havens, at all. :(

I think that Marie addresses this quite well above, so I'm going to leave it alone.

So now to business...
 
This is a gross misrepresentation of what was said, and I'm not going to pretend it isn't. All that was said is that he doesn't want Maedhros to be convinced to participate in Kinslaying III by another party. That he wants him to go into it fully knowing that it is horrible and that it is wrong, but that Maedhros feels he has no choice. This is precisely his mindset when he and Maglor steal the Simarils from the host of the Valar, and is thus, not a change in his personality, but rather an acceleration to that point. Now, I think a valid argument can be made that since we will see Maedhros do this later, there is no need to repeat the same note, but that is a far cry from the claim that Maedhros is a psycho of the Eol or Curufin variety.
I heard the same words as you, unless I misheard a word or two, but I apparently do not see the Third Kinslaying in the same way as you. I think that our opinions about what happened that led to that battle and why it was started, and how the brothers reacted afterwards, must be really very drastically different. But I'll move that discussion to the Feanorian Storylines thread.

What I would like people to do is to articulate what role they would like Amras to play in the rest of the show. So, maybe starting with a psychological state/worldview, and then show how that would play out throughout the First Age. I will then have to figure out how to convey those ideas to the Hosts concisely.
I will start working on compiling all my previous suggestions from all the threads tomorrow after work. Or tonight.
 
Here is my suggestion for where Amras is through the end of this season:

After his initial outburst, he is silent and listless through the journey eastward. In battle, he awakens. While we use a certain amount of joy in battle on the part of his brothers to indicate the ease with which they overcome the orcs, Amras turns into a cold, merciless Orc-mower. It might even be difficult to pull him away when Feanor falls.

Once the battle has ended, he falls back into catatonia to a degree, not only because of his grief, but because he has a more rational reaction to the butchery in which he has just engaged than do his brothers. He participates in the renewal of the oath (perhaps with a bit of prodding), but while his brothers are sorrowful about Feanor's impeding death, Amras' delivery is flat. He is doing this because it is a thing they are doing. Besides, he already feels completely bound in the oath, as all of the Sons of Feanor are.

After Maedhros is captured, and Curufin is trying to seize power, Maglor might appeal to Amras to help him prevent this, only to have Amras refuse to engage. There will be an appearance that the following season may or may not revolve around Curufin and Fingolfin coming to blows.

Going forward, Amras (who has begun forming a relationship with Maedhros) will regain some hope upon the rescue of his older brother. He might even see the peace between Maedhros and Fingolfin as a sign that perhaps the Oath does not need to kill everyone before it can be fulfilled.

After the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, as the Noldorin kingdoms begin to fall, Amras begins to lose that hope once more. He is beginning to see the truth that Feanor knew when he made them swear the Oath. The political landscape of the Feanorians shifts Curufin's way once more, as he works upon Amras' fey mood. Maedhros agrees to Kinslaying II when he sees himself arrayed against four of his brothers, with only Maglor willing to support his play.

After Celegorm, Caranthir, and Curufin are killed, he becomes the voice of the Oath. He no longer truly cares if he lives or dies, as long as it is in the attempt to fulfill it. He convinces Maedhros that what is right or wrong doesn't matter. They must do as they have sworn.

Maedhros does not truly accept responsibility for this until the end, though. After Amras and Curufin and all of his other excuses are gone, he realizes that he must take the blame for the terrible decision to defy the Valar and steal the two remaining Silmarils. Up until now, he has found ways to blame others for his misdeeds. Now he must come to grips with the fact that he was always bound by the Oath, and would not have truly acted differently than his brothers in the end.

While this is still quite a mass of broad strokes, it seems to me plausible. What do we think?
 
I think we need a role for Amras between the end of this season and the Nirnaeth Anoediad, or the Hosts will not be convinced to keep him on that long.

But, yes, a grief storyline for this season, which is resolved after the return of Maedhros works for me. And a change after the 5th battle. We are told that all of the Sons of Fëanor are wounded in that battle, though none of them are killed, so we can have some aspect of that particularly upsetting to Amras. He could have worked with some of the Men who betrayed them (or tried to warn Maedhros about Caranthir's dubious allies), or he or one of his brothers could have almost died and was saved by {something}. In other words, there would be some *reason* for Amras to lose confidence in Maedhros (whose Union has failed) and re-align with Curufin.


My thoughts are currently:

Season 3: Grief over Amrod's death. Anger with his family. Desire to break with Fëanor, but no willingness to put together a coherent revolution. Hesitance or downright refusal to renew the Oath. Aligned with Maedhros against his surviving brothers. Anger and bitterness seen in battle, but no final despair.

Season 4 (and 5): After Maedhros' return, Amras' despair is replaced with hope, but he is still cool and distant towards his family. He is now the voice of 'I only want to talk to you about the Oath, because that is the extent of my connection to you.' He can voice this during the introduction of Men and over trade disputes with the dwarves and the lost Aredhel issue. He remains in the south of East Beleriand, geographically separated from his brothers and the other elves.

Season 5 (hopefully 6): Beren and Lúthien story is pretty much just about Celegorm and Curufin. The other Fëanoreans do not appear.

Season 7 (I hope): The Fifth Battle - Amras can support Maedhros' Union because it is in pursuit of the Oath. He can be involved in the lead up to recruiting allies, perhaps, or have words of warning about things not going well. During the battle, he can be involved in saving one of his brother's lives, or one of them can save him. This would make it clear that, though he is not always on speaking terms with his family, he certainly would make the effort to save their lives.

Season ?: The Tuor and Turin stories...Fëanoreans? Who knows what any of them are doing for this. Staying out of it, most likely.

Season ?: The attack on Doriath shows Amras aligning with Curufin, so that the Curufin-Celegorm-Caranthir-Amras contingent forces the issue of the silmaril with Dior. While Amras may not *like* Curufin, he has determined that he has to fulfill the Oath. After all, if he dies in the attempt then the worst that happens is he goes to Mandos and rejoins his twin. We could see a recklessness to him in these final seasons. He would then instigate the attack on the Havens, and die there.
 
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Well, one of the reasons he should be there in the time period you have described is as I stated earlier. He keeps the balance of power from swinging towards Curufin. If Curufin had seized power, there would likely have been an attempt on his part to go after the High Kingship of the Noldor, especially after the death of Fingolfin.

I think that most of our check-ins with the Feanorians are going to deal with their internal politics. In fact, since we are sending Celegorm and Curufin out in S05, could that not be the result of a subtle attempted coup on Curufin's part? A coup in which Maedhros outmaneuvers him and sends him off on an "extended mission" far afield. I can see Amras playing a significant part in that.

Keep in mind, also, that not all of the brothers need to have major storylines throughout the whole series. They get their chances in the spotlight, and they have their background periods. I'm ok with Amras not having a plotline of his own in every season between now and the Nirnaeth.
 
Ok I seem to have missed this thread. I'll try to find time to read it through. I think this whole thing is a sad business, and beginning at the wrong end, with the wrong kind of energy. On the subject of the role of Amras, I have said what I think in the episode thread (he should be the Doom guy).
 
Immediate reactions:
First, shock. Then anger at Feanor that then quickly spreads to his brothers. At some point he will break down weeping, and remain somewhat in shock and torn, until the Dagor-nuin-Giliath starts.

At first he’s also depressed, but this is temporary. It also doesn’t show when he’s fighting Orcs in the Second Battle. He grieves, but he starts and remains pissed off. His father and brothers betrayed and murdered Amrod. Because Maedhros actually did resist burning the ships, and even defended Amros after he told Fëanor off, Amros forgives him once he calms down somewhat and begins to process what happened. But his other brothers are not his friends anymore, and he will not forget it. He mostly takes it out on Orcs, but fearlessly shows his anger at Fëanor (What more could Father do to punish him? Kill him, too?) and pisses on his brothers, too. And the audience should feel like they totally deserve it.

When his father is dying, he does mourn, but he’s also angry. He’s conflicted.


His attitude towards the Oath and renewing it:
He starts out conflicted.

He supported the Oath when he spoke to Amrod on the ships. He wants to take the Silmarils and get revenge on Morgoth.
The Oath took his twin away. He hates the Oath.
No, his father and brothers took his twin away. Their treachery is to blame.

But did the Oath damn his brother to the Void, for breaking it? He doesn’t want think so... but he’s terrified of that fate. He hates and resents the Oath and resents his father ... he wants to believe that Amrod escaped, but does that require him to accept that it was OK for his brothers to kill him...? He can’t accept that. But he isn’t sure it’s not true.

He struggles with the above for a bit but in time... he understands. Or he comes to an understanding that lets him cope with the horror. Amros realizes, before his brothers, that this happened because of the Oath, the Kinslaying, and the Doom. Not because Amrod was guilty of breaking the Oath but because they are all guilty of swearing it. They are Doomed.

So at first he resists renewing the Oath. He argues with his father, fearlessly. But then he realizes... it doesn’t matter if they swear again, because they’re already bound, already doomed. What does it matter if he renews it? He laughs bitterly. He will not renew it to please Fëanor, but he knows it doesn’t matter. He knows he can’t escape the Oath. He accuses Fëanor of leading them all to their doom. In front of everybody, because at that moment he’s past caring about the consequences.

EDIT: (But if we really depict Ep 1 with the sons of Fëanor NOT swearing the Oath, then Amros has to swear it now.)

His words prompt Fëanor to have the vision... that Amros is right. Fëanor has led the Ñoldor to their doom, they cannot possibly defeat Morgoth. But Fëanor refuses to admit it, and his other sons don’t believe Amros. (Amros gets away with this because Maedhros is suddenly in charge and even though he’s still 100% in favor of the Oath, he also feels bad for Amros’ situation and doesn’t want to punish him for speaking against Father.)


Medium-term fallout after Fëanor’s death:
Amros is very upset when Meadhros (whom he could accept as a leader) is captured and he’s stuck with the leadership of Maglor, which might really just mean the leadership of Curufin behind the throne. In the camp in Mithrim he sets his tents and his people off to one side. Henceforth, he’s not interested in hanging out with them when it isn’t official business.

When Fingon rescues Maedhros and the Feanorians are finally convinced/dragged into reuniting with Fingolfin's host, nobody wants to talk about the burning at Losgar... or explain where Amrod is... except Amros who just blurts out the whole sordid tale. (Maedhros is still too asleep/unconscious/out of it to explain it himself.)

Morgoth starts a lot of rumors about the misdeeds of the Noldor circling among the Sindar, leading to Thingol's confrontation with Finrod, Angrod, and Aegnor. But the rumor about burning the ships was started instead by Amros. It’s a spiteful act... but it’s also Amros’ unwillingness to hide the ugly truth or defend what his brothers did.

In early Season 04 his depression and rage change into bitter resentment.


His attitude in battle against Morgoth:
He's reckless, and doesn’t entirely care if he lives or dies. He is not suicidal, he’s convinced that suicide would land him in the Darkness and that terrifies him. He doesn’t even consider betraying his brothers the way they betrayed Amrod. But he becomes... vicious.

He can’t quit the war and won’t sabotage it. He’s still dedicated to revenge on Morgoth. He still wants to regain the Silmarils, but not for his father’s honor.

EDIT: During the Siege he has hope they can prevail for a time, but like Finrod he knows this can’t last forever (though he lacks Finrod’s faith in the Valar). He might say that once on screen, but he need not talk about the Doom. After the Bragollach he has less hope.


Long-term attitude towards his brothers:
If there are machinations between Maedhros and Curufin, Amros is on Maedhros' side, until the Second Kinslaying.

He won’t forgive the others. Sometimes he works at cross-purposes to them, not in sabotaging the Union of Maedhros or the attack on Doriath, but in lesser things. Instead of living just south of Estolad, he lives closer to Amon Ereb, far from his brothers. When they get together for hunting or councils or Mereth Aderthad, he doesn’t come. When they send letters to him, his responses are cold, or nothing. He abrasive or unpleasant to anyone else. It’s only a grudge/feud against his brothers.

When the Dwarves come into contact with the Fëanorians, they first meet Caranthir’s folk. And Caranthir behaves so rudely or puts both feet so far down his throat that the Dwarves are like.... “this guy is a jerkface”. Instead of continuing to taking the north road through Thargelion, they start taking the road due west of Sarn Athrad and trading with Curufin, who acquires Angrist and is happy.

Then Amros is like, “why are you trading with my brother Curufin, who completely sucks?” He bans the Dwarves from going through his territory to get to Himlad. He thinks that whatever outrageous and obnoxious thing Caranthir did has alienated them permanently (which is a reasonable guess) so now the Dwarves won’t be trade with his brothers and they’ll trade with the sons of Finarfin instead. But Thargelion is such a convenient way to get into Beleriand (now that the direct road to Himlad is closed) that Caranthir (or some smooth-talking vassal of his) manages to talk them around. So they start trading with Caranthir, and it’s so profitable that they’re willing to tolerate him being very rude at random unpredictable intervals, and he’s willing to tolerate their “unloveliness”.

When Finrod, Maedhros, and Maglor go hunting in southeast Beleriand that one time, they pass through Amros’ lands. Finrod tries to entice Amros to participate, hoping to encourage the start of reconciliation with Maglor, but Amros isn’t interested. When Finrod leads the Edain out of Ossiriand he’s bursting with excitement and wants to introduce all the Ñoldor to his new friends. Initially Amros is interested in the Edain, but then Finrod is like “Let’s go show Maedhros and Maglor how awesome this is! And these people need somewhere to live in East Beleriand so we need to talk to your brothers.” Then Amros politely tells Finrod to please take these strange half-naked creatures out of his territory and no thank you, he is not interested in coming along north. So the Folk of Bëor end up in Estolad, somewhat north of Amros’ territory. When his brothers later invite the Edain to ally with them, he pointedly doesn’t, and is very aloof.

In the Union of Maedhros, the Easterlings could theoretically have allied with any of the Sons of Feanor:
  • Maedhros and Maglor: ally with the Folk of Bor, who are (mostly) faithful
  • Celegorm and Curufin: despise Mortals and are having none of this garbage
  • Caranthir: was trying to win over Haleth and is having another go at it now, but isn’t great at making friends as we all know, so he isn’t anyone’s first choice
  • Amros: isn’t deliberately sabotaging the Union but is not willing to entirely go along with the program like his brothers, and so refuses to ally directly with any Mortals
Ulfang is left with... Caranthir. We saw where that went. Instead of merely having the bad luck to ally with people who were already in Morgoth’s pay, I prefer the tragedy of the Fëanorians’ behavior being the engine that drives the Curse. Amros’ feud with his brothers (brought on ultimately by the betrayal started by Fëanor) combines with the perpetual unpleasantness of Caranthir to drive Ulfang and his folk away from the Eldar. By being .... crappy allies. Condescending, arrogant, cold ... All things end ill that the Sons of Fëanor begin well, not because the Valar cursed them with failure but because of their own actions. (Maybe Haleth declines an alliance with Caranthir because she forebodes that associating with them would end “ill”.)

EDIT: He still has enough confidence in Maedhros’ leadership to hope the Union can renew the Siege for a time, but after the Nienaeth he loses confidence and starts talking about and quoting the Doom.

Amros continues to alienate his brothers by just refusing to forgive them. For their part, all of them (except Maedhros) are sick of being shunned. All of them (including Maedhros) really Do. Not. Want. to hear about how they’re Doomed and “slain [they] shall be”. That’s no fun for morale, especially after the Fifth Battle. So he’s shunned in turn.

He saves the life of one of his brothers during the Fifth Battle, because despite everything he doesn’t wish death upon them. Before everything went wrong, they were a close-knit family. But that act doesn’t reknit their family after the disaster of the Fifth Battle. What is he left with, after that? He has mostly given up on his brothers, alienated them, and cannot forgive them. The Ñoldor have lost the war. He concludes that the Oath is the only future he has left. Break it or fulfill it, the Oath will be his fate. He has moved from “The Oath is the abstract Doom of the Ñoldor” (which he still believes) to “The Oath will be our personal Doom”.

If Amras takes a position apart from his brothers and in part actually in some kind of opposition (although he fights in the wars), and the Sindar still consider him a kinslayer (rightfully), and the descendants of Finarfin and Fingolfin have similar views of him, then he will become utterly lonely, with just some servants and soldiers, and each encounter will lead to either him rejecting people or others rejecting him. In the end, his only choice, his destiny, will be to accept the consequences of the Oath. The only way to free himself from the burden of the Oath is to join in the kinslayings. He could do this without really being into it, and he could be reluctant to use violence and be one who tries to convince Dior to hand over the Silmaril he carries. In contrast, other brothers, like Caranthir, can be more full of aggression and have no qualms about killing those who keep the Silmaril, even if they are elves. I think he would contain a crucial aspect of the problems of the Oath that the sons live with and it would certainly be a mistake to kill him before the third Kinslaying.


His attitude towards the Kinslayings:
By the time of the Second Kinslaying, he feels some remorse over Alqualonde, but not a huge ton. His moral focus is not on right and wrong, but on guilt and Doom. Remorse doesn’t sway him from joining in at Doriath, nor is it his motivation for going along with Maedhros and Maglor trying to break the Oath. They think they’ve convinced him this is wrong... but they think the Kinslaying is terribly wrong and the Oath itself might be OK if they can just fulfill it nonviolently... somehow. Amros doesn’t really mind Kinslaying much, but he looks upon the Oath as their Doom. They were wrong to swear it. After they were all wounded at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad but survived, he is certain the Oath itself will kill them, it’s only a matter of time. Maybe it will kill them in battle (so he doesn’t resist attacking Doriath), or maybe it will kill them when they try to break it. It isn’t really in his hands, you see.

He is resigned to die... and so he’s trying to make peace with his twin’s fate and with not struggling against his fate. Not that he’s at peace in general, because he still hasn’t forgiven his brothers (or father).

Maybe, in his darkest moments, when he fears his twin is lost in the Darkness, of breaking the Oath and casting his own soul into that dark, as the only possible way of reunion?
When the war against Morgoth has failed and the Oath has started killing his brothers, who he didn’t actually have a death wish against, he reaches his darkest moment. Occasionally he feels like he’s willing to try breaking the Oath because... if doing that damned Amrod to the Void ... maybe he wants to be reunited with him. (This will be very dark. But it will be a temporary, intermittant attitude.) He is also motivated to try breaking the Oath by spite to spoil/ruin his father’s legacy, now that all the other hopes of the Noldor are ruined.

The Oath torments them something like the Ring tormenting Frodo – the constant intrusive thoughts of desire for the Silmaril, until the light of the Sun and Moon seems sick and dreary. They see visions of themselves being cast into the Everlasting Darkness, and Amros sees visions of his twin who might be there even now. His memory dredges up that moment when he heard Amrod screaming in Lammoth. (Remind the audience what happened in Season 03.) This should be disturbing. It would be a very contrasting reason for him to try to break the Oath, compared to Maedhros and Maglor who do so out of remorse and repentance.

But Amros doesn’t really, truly want to go to the Everlasting Darkness except on his worst, darkest days. He isn’t morally bothered much by Kinslaying. The pressure/torment of the Oath makes him more unhinged over time until he finally starts to act a bit crazy.

Or it would fit with the suggestion that at the end he degenerates into behaving almost like Crazy!Denethor at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. First, We're all doomed but maybe I want to end up with Amrod, whereever he is, so I'll break the Oath.

Followed by, Those people at the Havens are doomed anyway, Morgoth is winning, why not kill them? 'Slain ye shall be,' so why not die in a Kinslaying? We'll all burn one way or another!

He isn't crazy for most of the First Age, but the strain of fighting the Oath for 26 years finally snaps his sanity. Kind of the way Turin says crazy-sounding things when he finally finds out who Niniel was.
He feels more at peace once he fully accepts his fate is to die fulfilling the Oath. That’s all kinds of wrong, which is why it becomes self-fulfilling.

And Amros is killed in a fiery scene on the shore, during the Kinslaying, which did involve burning according to Bilbo’s song in Rivendell.

But the audience sees, though he was right that swearing the Oath doomed them, he was wrong that they had to give in to it. Maedhros and Maglor survive the Third Kinslaying specifically because of their reluctance.

His death is not primarily because of Amrod's death, but because of the Oath. Amrod's death was what led him to realize that the Oath had doomed them, and to become the spokesman for the Doom of Mandos.
 
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Oh and as a short comment on the discussion about mental illness - as a clinical psychologist, I'd recommend that we avoid elves suffering from depression or PTSD. I'd suggest sorrow or crisis.
 
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