Hi everybody!
After starting to listen to the podcast on the 25th of April, I’m finally (after an oyssey of almost 110 days [it’s already the 11th here in Italy]) at episode 210, close enough for me to finally write something in here.
There are some things I wanted to talk about, a couple pretty quick, and one another that will be longer.
1) Frodo being named the Ring-Bearer by Elrond and not the Ring-Destroyer
There’s one thing that was not mentioned in the episode where this was discussed that I think is worth pointing out.
If Elrond named Frodo “Ring-Destroyer” (or something like that) he would’ve put an end to achieve in front of the Hobbit, but this would’ve given the Ring something to use to overtake Frodo’s will.
If you have an agenda, if you want to achieve something, the Ring will strive to give you what you need to reach your end.
But since Frodo is “just” the Ring-Bearer, the mean and the end are almost the same thing, and the Ring will have less power over him.
2) The Companions representing the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth.
Those who represent Elves, Men and Dwarves are going with Frodo and the other Hobbits because providence is pointing that way and, also, because they are going in the same direction. We can easily assume that they are all needed in their hometown (if we can say that Minas Tirith is Aragorn’s home).
Also, no one is under any oath and will go on as long or as far as he wants to, by will or chance.
But all of them (except Boromir) will turn away to their main destination for the sake of the quest.
I think we can say that the will of their kind is bestowed upon them and when they choose to not go to Mirkwood, Erebor and Gondor they are, in some sense, showing that all of the Elves, Dwarves and Men are choosing the Quest instead of the local problems.
3) Frodo got there first!
Now, the third and longer one.
Again, we go back in time, when the 2+ years in Rivendell were not on the radar (probably).
When crossing the Bruinen in “Flight to the Ford”, Frodo is being chased by the Riders.
Then, the Nine cry “The Ring! The Ring!”, while the Witch-king and to others start crossing the river.
At that moment “‘By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair,’ said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, ‘you shall have neither the Ring nor me!”.
During the episode, the question about why would Frodo say those two names remained unanswered.
I thought of a possible reading of it.
But first, it must be useful to gather some data answering to the questions:
This shows us that Frodo knows who Varda/Elbereth is, almost certainly thanks to Bilbo and his travels. But from the text we can’t tell how much Frodo knows for sure. Something, yes, but saying more than that wouldn’t help.
So, we have to think about this only with the knowledge we can gather from the verses sang by the Elves.
“O Lady clear!”
“O Queen beyond the Western Seas!”
“O Light to us that wander here”
“Clear are thy eyes and bright thy breath!”
“-We sing to thee/In a far land beyond the Sea.”
“O stars that in the Sunless Year/With shining hand by her were sown, /In windy fields now bright and clear/We see your silver blossom blown!”
“We still remember […]/Thy starlight on the Western Seas.”
We see that Varda is invoked by the Elves as a guide, being referred to as a symbol of light, of whiteness and beauty, other than being a Vala and linked to the stars.
So, they sing about her beauty and the light, both of her and of the stars she has made before the Sun ever was.
All these things are far away, from the world, from the darkness and from any corruption.
I THINK he could know something about the Lay of Leithian, but we can’t be sure about that.
So, as before, let’s gather data just from what the text says, both in the ann-thennath and in the tale by Aragorn.
From the song:
“A light of stars was in her hair, /And in her raiment glimmering.”
“Her mantle glinted in the moon”
“-and at her feet was strewn/A mist of silver quivering.”
“That in his arm lay glistering.”
“The trembling starlight of the skies/He saw there mirrored shimmering.”
“Tinuviel the elven fair”
“And arms like silver glimmering.”
Again, we see her beauty being linked to stars and light.
But, other than that, in the song we learn about the fate of Luthien and Beren: his love being able to overcome the distance between them and to enchant and heal him, to conquer her and, after that, their love overcoming anything, his doom, her doom and conquering even death, giving them the chance to be together even though, at first, “The Sundering Seas between them lay”.
From Aragorn’s tale, we also learn about what was around them when her story happened: the war against Morgoth, the Silmarils and all that peace and history with NO TRAUMA AT ALL that is the First Age.
Then their quest for the Silmaril is contextualized, and we have their peril both in Tol-in-Gaurhoth and in Angband, with them being safe and together after those dangers.
Then again, the death of Beren, the death of Tinuviel and their life together after death and beyond mortal life.
So, after a song and a tale, what does Frodo know FOR CERTAIN about Luthien?
Her beauty (linked to stars and light) and her love for Beren. And both of these things were unconquered by darkness, by torment and by death (even defeating Sauron while they were at it).
“By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!”
Is this an oath? Is this some sort of invocation? What is he saying?
I don’t think it’s an oath: there’s no real witness being called, there’s no consequence being spoken of if something or someone were to interfere or break the oath. I also don’t think Frodo would do anything like it.
I don’t think it’s an invocation, if what happens in the dell under Amon Sul is to be considered as such. There (as the Elves did in their song) Frodo says “O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!”. That I take as a vocative. Frodo and the Elves are asking Varda to listen to them, to take notice of their song towards her o to his cry for help.
Also, I don’t think we can see this as someone using Frodo’s voice to say something “cool” (I’m looking at you, Ulmo).
What I think it’s happening, is that Frodo (seeing/understanding/whatever something) is stating something that will happen, no matter what.
His will is not present in that statement, “shall” leaves it out of this sentence.
So, that’s what I think Frodo is saying, a statement of fact, of something that is going to happen and that him or anyone else will not be able to stop.
I think that Frodo has connected some dots and was able to see (maybe unconsciously) some parallels between the most beautiful of the Valar and the most beautiful of the Children of Iluvatar.
Light, beauty, stars, overcoming fate, overcoming perils, goddess, elf-maiden, things, all unstained, out of reach for darkness and corruption.
See where I’m going?
“There was light and high beauty beyond its reach”.
This is what Sam thinks/feels when he sees the star while in Mordor.
And I think we can see the same thing in what Frodo is saying to the Riders.
We can put it like this:
“In the name of light and beauty, of those things and people that doom, darkness and death cannot reach and stain or corrupt, I foresee that you shall have neither the Ring nor me”.
So, here it is: Frodo is putting his life, the Ring and the quest in the hands of Estel, recognizing that there is something greater, more fair and able to always defeat the darkness.
He’s seeing Estel and he wants to believe.
Ok, I have written enough.
Sorry for any mistake, any clumsy sentence, but I haven’t written this much in english in many a year and I’m a bit rusty.
Thanks for reading, I hope these thoughts were somewhat “right”. Especially the last one.
P.S. Funny thing: I'm listening to a playlist with random songs in english, japanese and italian. Now, as I’m wrapping things up, Franco Battiato’s “Shock in my town” just started.
A line of the song says:
“Rozzi cibernetici signori degli anelli”
“Uncouth cybernetic lords of the rings”
After starting to listen to the podcast on the 25th of April, I’m finally (after an oyssey of almost 110 days [it’s already the 11th here in Italy]) at episode 210, close enough for me to finally write something in here.
There are some things I wanted to talk about, a couple pretty quick, and one another that will be longer.
1) Frodo being named the Ring-Bearer by Elrond and not the Ring-Destroyer
There’s one thing that was not mentioned in the episode where this was discussed that I think is worth pointing out.
If Elrond named Frodo “Ring-Destroyer” (or something like that) he would’ve put an end to achieve in front of the Hobbit, but this would’ve given the Ring something to use to overtake Frodo’s will.
If you have an agenda, if you want to achieve something, the Ring will strive to give you what you need to reach your end.
But since Frodo is “just” the Ring-Bearer, the mean and the end are almost the same thing, and the Ring will have less power over him.
2) The Companions representing the Free Peoples of Middle-Earth.
Those who represent Elves, Men and Dwarves are going with Frodo and the other Hobbits because providence is pointing that way and, also, because they are going in the same direction. We can easily assume that they are all needed in their hometown (if we can say that Minas Tirith is Aragorn’s home).
Also, no one is under any oath and will go on as long or as far as he wants to, by will or chance.
But all of them (except Boromir) will turn away to their main destination for the sake of the quest.
I think we can say that the will of their kind is bestowed upon them and when they choose to not go to Mirkwood, Erebor and Gondor they are, in some sense, showing that all of the Elves, Dwarves and Men are choosing the Quest instead of the local problems.
3) Frodo got there first!
Now, the third and longer one.
Again, we go back in time, when the 2+ years in Rivendell were not on the radar (probably).
When crossing the Bruinen in “Flight to the Ford”, Frodo is being chased by the Riders.
Then, the Nine cry “The Ring! The Ring!”, while the Witch-king and to others start crossing the river.
At that moment “‘By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair,’ said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, ‘you shall have neither the Ring nor me!”.
During the episode, the question about why would Frodo say those two names remained unanswered.
I thought of a possible reading of it.
But first, it must be useful to gather some data answering to the questions:
- What does Frodo know about Elbereth?
- What does Frodo know about Luthien?
- What is Frodo saying?
- Why?
- What does Frodo know about Elbereth?
This shows us that Frodo knows who Varda/Elbereth is, almost certainly thanks to Bilbo and his travels. But from the text we can’t tell how much Frodo knows for sure. Something, yes, but saying more than that wouldn’t help.
So, we have to think about this only with the knowledge we can gather from the verses sang by the Elves.
“O Lady clear!”
“O Queen beyond the Western Seas!”
“O Light to us that wander here”
“Clear are thy eyes and bright thy breath!”
“-We sing to thee/In a far land beyond the Sea.”
“O stars that in the Sunless Year/With shining hand by her were sown, /In windy fields now bright and clear/We see your silver blossom blown!”
“We still remember […]/Thy starlight on the Western Seas.”
We see that Varda is invoked by the Elves as a guide, being referred to as a symbol of light, of whiteness and beauty, other than being a Vala and linked to the stars.
So, they sing about her beauty and the light, both of her and of the stars she has made before the Sun ever was.
All these things are far away, from the world, from the darkness and from any corruption.
- What does Frodo know about Luthien?
I THINK he could know something about the Lay of Leithian, but we can’t be sure about that.
So, as before, let’s gather data just from what the text says, both in the ann-thennath and in the tale by Aragorn.
From the song:
“A light of stars was in her hair, /And in her raiment glimmering.”
“Her mantle glinted in the moon”
“-and at her feet was strewn/A mist of silver quivering.”
“That in his arm lay glistering.”
“The trembling starlight of the skies/He saw there mirrored shimmering.”
“Tinuviel the elven fair”
“And arms like silver glimmering.”
Again, we see her beauty being linked to stars and light.
But, other than that, in the song we learn about the fate of Luthien and Beren: his love being able to overcome the distance between them and to enchant and heal him, to conquer her and, after that, their love overcoming anything, his doom, her doom and conquering even death, giving them the chance to be together even though, at first, “The Sundering Seas between them lay”.
From Aragorn’s tale, we also learn about what was around them when her story happened: the war against Morgoth, the Silmarils and all that peace and history with NO TRAUMA AT ALL that is the First Age.
Then their quest for the Silmaril is contextualized, and we have their peril both in Tol-in-Gaurhoth and in Angband, with them being safe and together after those dangers.
Then again, the death of Beren, the death of Tinuviel and their life together after death and beyond mortal life.
So, after a song and a tale, what does Frodo know FOR CERTAIN about Luthien?
Her beauty (linked to stars and light) and her love for Beren. And both of these things were unconquered by darkness, by torment and by death (even defeating Sauron while they were at it).
- What is Frodo saying?
“By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!”
Is this an oath? Is this some sort of invocation? What is he saying?
I don’t think it’s an oath: there’s no real witness being called, there’s no consequence being spoken of if something or someone were to interfere or break the oath. I also don’t think Frodo would do anything like it.
I don’t think it’s an invocation, if what happens in the dell under Amon Sul is to be considered as such. There (as the Elves did in their song) Frodo says “O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!”. That I take as a vocative. Frodo and the Elves are asking Varda to listen to them, to take notice of their song towards her o to his cry for help.
Also, I don’t think we can see this as someone using Frodo’s voice to say something “cool” (I’m looking at you, Ulmo).
What I think it’s happening, is that Frodo (seeing/understanding/whatever something) is stating something that will happen, no matter what.
His will is not present in that statement, “shall” leaves it out of this sentence.
So, that’s what I think Frodo is saying, a statement of fact, of something that is going to happen and that him or anyone else will not be able to stop.
- Why?
I think that Frodo has connected some dots and was able to see (maybe unconsciously) some parallels between the most beautiful of the Valar and the most beautiful of the Children of Iluvatar.
Light, beauty, stars, overcoming fate, overcoming perils, goddess, elf-maiden, things, all unstained, out of reach for darkness and corruption.
See where I’m going?
“There was light and high beauty beyond its reach”.
This is what Sam thinks/feels when he sees the star while in Mordor.
And I think we can see the same thing in what Frodo is saying to the Riders.
We can put it like this:
“In the name of light and beauty, of those things and people that doom, darkness and death cannot reach and stain or corrupt, I foresee that you shall have neither the Ring nor me”.
So, here it is: Frodo is putting his life, the Ring and the quest in the hands of Estel, recognizing that there is something greater, more fair and able to always defeat the darkness.
He’s seeing Estel and he wants to believe.
Ok, I have written enough.
Sorry for any mistake, any clumsy sentence, but I haven’t written this much in english in many a year and I’m a bit rusty.
Thanks for reading, I hope these thoughts were somewhat “right”. Especially the last one.
P.S. Funny thing: I'm listening to a playlist with random songs in english, japanese and italian. Now, as I’m wrapping things up, Franco Battiato’s “Shock in my town” just started.
A line of the song says:
“Rozzi cibernetici signori degli anelli”
“Uncouth cybernetic lords of the rings”
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