On the passing on of Narsil

cellardur

Active Member
Well, this is why I had suggested Aegnor flying into a rage, slaughtering a bunch of Orcs and earning a mutual kill against a Balrog; nobody likes to talk about it the same way nobody sings of Fingolfin’s duel with Morgoth. A company of angry Elves at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (the Elves from Nargothrond led by Gwindor) slew hundreds of Orcs (including a decoy army?) and got all the way to beating on the doors of Angband before they were all killed except for Gwindor, who was captured.
They may not sing about it, but they would still know. This defeats the purpose of Gondolin being the first place where Balrogs are defeated by Elves.

Even then I would prefer for Ecthelion to be helped by the hallowed fountain of Ulmo, whilst Glorfindel sheer desperation and love for Idril's family makes him win an impossible fight.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
I don't know that "the purpose of Gondolin being the first place where Balrogs are defeated by Elves" is a given? It might turn out that way, it might not, but why is it a requirement?
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
About half of the balrogs were wiped out in the War to Begin All Wars (aka the War of the Powers) at the end of Season 1, leaving Melkor with about 9 (Arien had previously defected, and there were roughly 20 to start with). The Valar can kill balrogs.

Our 'balrog rule' is that when the balrogs appear in battle, a named elf (main character) must die. In the Battle of Sudden Flame, we will have balrogs fighting, and Aegnor and Angrod will die. So...Aegnor is definitely going to be killed by a balrog in this story. Probably Angrod too, but I suppose that is up for debate when we get to that point in Season 5.

It has been suggested that maybe Aegnor takes out the balrog he's fighting, and dies with him. We have enough balrogs, so we can afford to do that. We'd make use of a convenient cliff somewhere if we went that route.

It has also been suggested that Gondolin develops some unique 'anti-balrog' technology, thus becoming the culmination of the Sauron/Gothmog feud when they eliminate him. Gondolin swords are definitely magical in other ways, and it is rather significant that the Fall of Gondolin, War of Wrath, and Gandalf's confrontation with Durin's Bane are the only balrog deaths we are told about. I don't think all of the balrog deaths in the War of Wrath will be from swords from Gondolin, though, so we probably don't *need* a Gondolin-only rule.

More elves will be killed by balrogs and fail to kill the balrog in return - Angrod and Fingon come to mind, and we've already had Fëanor.

So, to re-cap: Aegnor will fight a balrog, and the balrog will kill him. Whether or not he kills the balrog too is a Season 5 finale question. That has been suggested, but I wouldn't call the decision final at this point.

Balrog recap:
9 left after War of the Powers
1 killed by Aegnor?
Gothmog killed in Gondolin
1 more killed in Gondolin
4-5 killed in War of Wrath
2 escape War of Wrath
Durin's Bane killed in Moria
1 indefinitely MIA
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I had a thought about the Narsil origin story.

We currently plan it for after Dagor Aglareb, where Aegnor is to break his sword. But we also have Angrod declining to come with, because he says he doesn’t want Caranthir and Feanorians in general verbally abusing him again.

How does that fit into the trajectory of his feelings towards them vs. reconciliation? What’s the plan for how his feelings evolve over time?

Would it make more sense for Angrod’s character to tell this story earlier, closer to Caranthir’s outburst? We can break Aegnor’s sword in a skirmish, since we ought to have some occur anyway.

Or just to say Angrod declines because he isn’t warm about active reconciliation?
 
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cellardur

Active Member
I don't know that "the purpose of Gondolin being the first place where Balrogs are defeated by Elves" is a given? It might turn out that way, it might not, but why is it a requirement?
It's mentioned in the Book of Lost Tales, that up until the Fall of Gondolin no elf had ever killed a Balrog. This was when the Balrogs were much, much weaker and the Fall of Gondolin has dozens of Balrogs being killed. When Tolkien increased the stature of Balrogs, then he reduced the number to possibly no more than 3.

For me the Fall of Gondolin is the last stand of the Noldor and to some extent the Sindar as well. This is it for them. Every Noldor kingdom has fallen, they lose Gondolin and the war is over. The rebellion against the Valinor and the fight against Morgoth ends here. The War of Wrath is not the a war the exiles take part in.

Gondolin is the climax of the war and that's where I think it works well to see Balrogs finally be killed by Elves. It's their last and most glorious stand.

In the case of Ecthelion, we can play up the significance of Ulmo helping due to the Fountain.

As for Glorfindel, he is one of longest standing characters, which is why I think he should have been introduced early. Apart from a brief blip in the 2nd Age, he alongside Cirdan, Celeborn, Galadriel and Sauron are one of the few characters from the 2nd Season right until the end. Building up his great last stand makes sense and he will stand out in memory.
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Glorfindel will be introduced in the main storyline this season, but there have been glimpses of him before. He's in Rivendell in the Season 1 Frame (more in the background, but there), and we see a tapestry of him fighting the balrog in the opening sequence.

Glorfindel is there without dialogue in Season 3, as a member of Turgon's group crossing the Helcaraxë. It was suggested that he be the one to put a blanket around Idril when she was rescued from drowning.

He (and Ecthelion) will be introduced for real in the early part of this season. Turgon establishes Vinyamar before the Feast of Reuniting, and they are both involved in that.



I mentioned the possibility of Angrod declining the invitation to show the audience that he is *not* so willing to be conciliatory towards the people who (in his mind) slandered him. We are going to have Angrod reveal the Kinslaying to Thingol, and we are going to have Caranthir accuse him of telling tales to Thingol much earlier. So, I was hoping for a bridge scene where we see that Angrod is holding on to that and a bit bitter over it, so his decision to speak up later will seem to have come from a long simmer rather than a spur of the moment type of thing.

So, any time between Caranthir's outburst over Angrod's initial report (Episode 4?) and the reveal of the Kinslaying (Episode 9?) would work to serve as that bridge. If the scene is later (post Kinslaying reveal), it might appear that Angrod is too cowardly to face the Fëanoreans after tattling on them to Thingol. That's...probably not the vibe we want! So, if the scene is later, we might want to leave out the part where Angrod is invited and declines. It might be more important to make that journey part of Aredhel's farewell tour before the move to Gondolin.
 
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Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I suggested making Narsil’s origin happen earlier, not later. Before Dagor Aglareb.

I’m not strongly leaning towards Aegnor killing a Balrog, because we do want it to be a special thing. But I’m not opposed either, although the point about Gondolin being the first time even in the Lost Tales is a good one.

And I very much don’t want to change the story to make Thingol first hear mention of the Kinslaying from Angrod instead of from rumors. That’s another thread, but I don’t want to assume it’s a Final Decision.
 
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MithLuin

Well-Known Member
No, Thingol hears rumors first, then confronts Angrod and learns the truth. As in the book. This does not change the fact that Thingol hears it from Angrod. Tolkien tells us that part of Angrod's motivation for speaking ties back to Caranthir's earlier words; we'd have to show that.


And, yes, I was agreeing that earlier works very well from the Angrod angle of the story, but perhaps not for other aspects of that visit which were maybe more crucial than Angrod's refusal of an invitation. A scene like that involves a bunch of different characters, so they all have to be ready to make it work.

For instance, Maedhros can't very well commission Narsil from Telchar until after Celegorm and Curufin meet Telchar and Curufin obtains Angrist. That will certainly be after the Mereth Aderthad. (I currently have the meeting of Curufin and Telchar at Episode 6, which I thought was the earliest we could show that).

It was also suggested that Aredhel's inspiration in taking this trip was a sort of 'farewell tour' before being locked away in Gondolin. If that's the case, it would have to happen after Turgon starts building Gondolin (so...later).

Most likely, it will be easiest to divorce the Angrod incident from that trip. At a time that is appropriate to our story, have an elf invite Angrod somewhere, and have him question if the Fëanoreans will be there. If the answer is yes, he refuses to go. We are going to have him attend the Mereth Aderthad, and Caranthir will *not* be there, so that conversation might fit better at that time. Just something to show that even if there is 'officially' peace between the Host of Fingolfin and the Fëanoreans, that doesn't mean that Angrod and Caranthir are getting along.

But if we do move the forging of Narsil earlier in the Season, then we will just have to deal with Aredhel's farewell trip separately. The Angrod-invitation-refusal works fine earlier.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I have an idea for Narsil: how about have Maedhros commission it for Aegnor as an act of truce? I can’t expect the Feanoreans to be happy with the House of Finarfin after the reveal of the Kinslaying, they’ll think the House of Finarfin ratted them out to Thingol.
 

cellardur

Active Member
I have listened to Episode 4.07 and how about all the weapons/helmet: Narsil, Ancrist and the Dragon Helm be commissioned by Maedhros as a sign of the friendship between the Three Houses of the Noldor. Telchar can be commissioned to make three great gifts and someone prophetic can even foretell that the wielders of these weapons will accomplish the three most renowned feats against Morgoth and his allies namely being: stealing a Silmaril, killing Sauron and killing Glaurung. Maedhros could tell of the prophecy and hand each of the three weapons to one branch of Finwe's family.

Curufin can be given Ancrist.
Fingon the dragon helm.
Aegnor is given Narsil.

So the audience might immediately expect these three to accomplish the acts, but it will take time for things to play out.


As for Narsil, the host mentioned Andreth having descendants. I thought she remained unmarried just like Aegnor, pining after the love of their life. However, we could cheat and have Narsil pass to her nephew Bregolas and down Beleth's line this way ending up with the Lords of Andunne.

I still want Aegnor and Angrod dying together fighting a Balrog. One brother uses Narsil and the other a spear to foreshadow what will come later.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
One of the things that came out of the discussion of Telchar's works is that the Dragon-Helm kind of has to come after the appearance of the first dragon, which will happen at the very end of this season. Therefore, if we want to have Angrist and Narsil made before the end of this season, they cannot be part of a collection with the dragon helm.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
One of the things that came out of the discussion of Telchar's works is that the Dragon-Helm kind of has to come after the appearance of the first dragon, which will happen at the very end of this season. Therefore, if we want to have Angrist and Narsil made before the end of this season, they cannot be part of a collection with the dragon helm.
We could have the Lord of Nogrod (Laurin? Depends on how long we want Dwarves to live) give Maedhros the Dragon-Helm in the beginning of Season 5, who in turn gives it to Fingon. Or leave out Maedhros receiving the helm, and the Lord of Nogrod gives it to Fingon as commemoration of his victory against Glaurung in F.A. 309 (49 years, seven years times seven:)) after Fingon drove Glaurung away.
 

cellardur

Active Member
One of the things that came out of the discussion of Telchar's works is that the Dragon-Helm kind of has to come after the appearance of the first dragon, which will happen at the very end of this season. Therefore, if we want to have Angrist and Narsil made before the end of this season, they cannot be part of a collection with the dragon helm.
I know, but can't we delay this?

Also mentioned in the episode was the problem of the Dragon Helm being passed to so many hands. I don't see why we can't stick with the idea the Helm is too heavy to wear. Telchar can even comment that he made the Dragon-Helm to heavy. So Maedhros, Fingon and Hurin can all struggle fighting using the Helm.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I know, but can't we delay this?

Also mentioned in the episode was the problem of the Dragon Helm being passed to so many hands. I don't see why we can't stick with the idea the Helm is too heavy to wear. Telchar can even comment that he made the Dragon-Helm to heavy. So Maedhros, Fingon and Hurin can all struggle fighting using the Helm.
Do we need it to go to Maedhros before Fingon? And what opportunities will we have for Fingon to fight with the Helm? For Hurin, the main reason he doesn’t wear the Helm is because of his pride, he would prefer for his enemies to see his face.

Speaking of the Dragon Helm, is there any reason why it isn’t mentioned after the Fall of Nargothrond? It just disappears from the text afterwards.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
We could, but I have concerns about every named work of Telchar being made at the very end of her life. Even having her around at the end of S04 is pushing it.
We could space the receiving of the items throughout the season, with Curufin getting Angrist first when Caranthir meets with Telchar, then Aegnor receiving Narsil (not sure what method he receives it), then Telchar is last seen working on the Dragon-Helm in the season finale; she dies in the first episode of Season 5, and the Lord of Nogrod gives it to Fingon.
 
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