On the passing on of Narsil

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
We could space the receiving of the items throughout the season, with Curufin getting Angrist first when Caranthir meets with Telchar, then Aegnor receiving Narsil (not sure what method he receives it), then Telchar is last seen working on the Dragon-Helm in the season finale; she dies in the first episode of Season 5, and the Lord of Nogrod gives it to Fingon.
The hosts have specifically said that they want Telchar making the Dragon Helm in S05, but I agree with spacing her other great works across S04.
 

cellardur

Active Member
The hosts have specifically said that they want Telchar making the Dragon Helm in S05, but I agree with spacing her other great works across S04.
Maybe, then we could have a prophecy that Telchar will gift three great gifts to the three houses of the Noldor and they will be involved in three great deeds.
Do we need it to go to Maedhros before Fingon? And what opportunities will we have for Fingon to fight with the Helm? For Hurin, the main reason he doesn’t wear the Helm is because of his pride, he would prefer for his enemies to see his face.

Speaking of the Dragon Helm, is there any reason why it isn’t mentioned after the Fall of Nargothrond? It just disappears from the text afterwards.
That's part of the reason Hurin does not wear, the Helm but Hurin is also not as tall or physically as strong as his relatives. The House of Hador and the House of Fingolfin seem to be the tallest and physically strongest people about. With the exception of Thingol, all the tallest Children of Illuvatar are from those two houses.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
  1. The Dragon-Helm was made for Azaghal, King of Belegost.
  2. He gave it to Maedhros after the Elf saved his life in a battle in the east.
  3. Maedhros gave it to Fingon as (one of many) friendship gifts, and to commemorate his victory over Glaurung. So in part this is similar to having Narsil made for Aegnor.
  4. Fingon gave it to Hador, probably when Fingolfin made the Mortal the lord of Dor-Lomin.
The Hosts want to de-emphasize it being too heavy to wear, to avoid it being perceived as the mathom that nobody wants. Personally, I think we can do that without changing its story. I think we can emphasize that it's a royal gift signifying friendship and (in Hador's case) lordship, and kinda ignore (or just not mention) that it's too heavy for most non-Dwarves to wear comfortably.

  • Telchar gives it to a Dwarf-King because he's a king. I can't recall if he's her king, but if not then it's a sign of friendship between Nogrod and Belegost, maybe commissioned by Nogrod's king.
  • Azaghal gives it to Maedhros because his life was saved.
  • Maedhros gives it to Fingon for lots of reasons. He's the only person I can imagine emphasizing that the helm doesn't work for him: Orcs fear his own face far more than any Dwarf-mask!
  • Fingon gives it to Hador to signify that he is now the lord of his people, and from now on Fingolfin will only indirectly rule the Hadorians.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Oh I forgot to add, Andreth definitely didn't marry anyone else after Aegnor rejected her. It's a significant part of her character that I wouldn't want to get rid of. I prefer Ange1's idea of Andreth dying right before Aegnor does, and the sword being recovered by Emeldir.
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Andreth has no descendants. She does, however, have several nieces and nephews. An elf could try to deliver Aegnor's sword to Andreth, and, finding her dead, gives it to a relative. That could be how we reveal that she didn't outlive Aegnor, or we could show her death before hand. Depending on how we tell their story, that could be a particularly sad coda.

Or we could use the Emeldir-picks-it-up-off-the-battlefield idea. This will be an issue for the Season 5 finale. The advantage here is that it emphasizes the chaos and disarray after the battle.


Telchar is a dwarf of Nogrod, but she has been affiliated with Belegost in our story, simply because Nogrod wasn't interested in establishing diplomatic relations with the Sindar, and Telchar's master (Gamil Brog) had students of both Nogrod and Belegost and got her involved with arming the elves of Doriath. Which is to say....she's still 'of Nogrod', but likely has her set-up in Belegost these days.

So, yeah, she'll likely make the Dragon-helm as a commission for Azaghal directly.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I'm realizing (perhaps belatedly) that depending on how the Dwarves of Nogrod end up sacking Doriath, they may have to have a diplomatic and economic relationship with Doriath first. At least if we use the version in the book, the Dwarves who are commissioned to make the Nauglamir, who then kill Thingol, are from Nogrod.

I'm also still wary of painting them as unfriendly or bad from the start, like telegraphing that they're going to be villains, or depicting a whole society as entirely unfriendly for all of many centuries.

Which is to say that I'd rather show Nogrod start trading and working with Elves. Neither city has any reason to like or trust Morgoth, so it's in their best interest to ally with his enemies.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I'm realizing (perhaps belatedly) that depending on how the Dwarves of Nogrod end up sacking Doriath, they may have to have a diplomatic and economic relationship with Doriath first. At least if we use the version in the book, the Dwarves who are commissioned to make the Nauglamir, who then kill Thingol, are from Nogrod.

I'm also still wary of painting them as unfriendly or bad from the start, like telegraphing that they're going to be villains, or depicting a whole society as entirely unfriendly for all of many centuries.

Which is to say that I'd rather show Nogrod start trading and working with Elves. Neither city has any reason to like or trust Morgoth, so it's in their best interest to ally with his enemies.
Maybe Finrod entreats with the Dwarves of Nogrod, who make the Nauglamir, with Telchar being known for her work with weapons and the Dwarves of Nogrod for their jewelry? Then Thingol gets wind of it and this is when it asks if they can combine the Silmaril with the Nauglamir after Hurin brings it to Doriath from Nargothrond, after which the Dwarves of Nogrod kill him.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I like the idea of Finrod persuading them to open up, but I don't want the Nauglamir made until Thingol gets the Silmaril. That's a change made by Christopher Tolkien that I want to undo. I've suggested other things that the Dwarves can make for Finrod -- things that don't violate Thingol's ban against Noldor wearing jewelry.
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Yes, the context of the Nauglamir within the environment of the Ban (since we have extended the Ban to something visible, ie, gems) will definitely be a topic we have to discuss. The version in the published Silmarillion may not work. But, so far, the Hosts have requested that a young Zirak make the Nauglamir for Finrod early on, and then an old and venerable Gamil Zirak be called in by Thingol to rework the piece with the silmaril. Making the Nauglamir before the Ban will be rather difficult to pull off, I think, though we will definitely want to show Finrod/Dwarf gifts and friendship.

As for Nogrod...their disinterest in establishing diplomatic relations with the Sindar is that they were of the opinion that this 'primitive' people had nothing to offer them. They dismissed them as irrelevant. That was...a first impression, not a final one. Once orcs invaded Beleriand, the dwarves of Nogrod came to different conclusions (as I think we had them fighting alongside dwarves of Belegost in the battle in which Denethor died?)

Also, now that the Noldor are on the scene, the dwarves will likely form a rather different opinion of the value of elves. The Noldor are skilled craftsmen who no doubt surpass the dwarves in some areas, and value the work of the dwarves in general. The Noldor/Dwarf relationship ought to be a much more positive and less tentative connection than the Sindar/Dwarf relationship has been.

But regardless, it's not that the dwarves of Nogrod are 'bad' characters or that they hate/mistrust the Sindar from the start. They're just rather dismissive, and take some time to re-evaluate their first impression. They also have the Green Elves of Ossiriand as neighbors, and there's no friendship there at all.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
My suggestion is that they offer to make beautiful jewelry, and Finrod declines because he respects Thingol and the ban. (Kind of an easter/egg joke about the Nauglamir in the 1977 Silmarillion.) Instead, the Dwarves present him with lighting of the kind that illumines Menegroth: beautiful lights in gorgeous glass and metal settings, as chandeliers or as sculptures of trees, flowers, Elves, or abstract sculpture.
 
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