On the passing on of Narsil

We could space the receiving of the items throughout the season, with Curufin getting Angrist first when Caranthir meets with Telchar, then Aegnor receiving Narsil (not sure what method he receives it), then Telchar is last seen working on the Dragon-Helm in the season finale; she dies in the first episode of Season 5, and the Lord of Nogrod gives it to Fingon.

The hosts have specifically said that they want Telchar making the Dragon Helm in S05, but I agree with spacing her other great works across S04.
 
The hosts have specifically said that they want Telchar making the Dragon Helm in S05, but I agree with spacing her other great works across S04.
Maybe, then we could have a prophecy that Telchar will gift three great gifts to the three houses of the Noldor and they will be involved in three great deeds.
Do we need it to go to Maedhros before Fingon? And what opportunities will we have for Fingon to fight with the Helm? For Hurin, the main reason he doesn’t wear the Helm is because of his pride, he would prefer for his enemies to see his face.

Speaking of the Dragon Helm, is there any reason why it isn’t mentioned after the Fall of Nargothrond? It just disappears from the text afterwards.
That's part of the reason Hurin does not wear, the Helm but Hurin is also not as tall or physically as strong as his relatives. The House of Hador and the House of Fingolfin seem to be the tallest and physically strongest people about. With the exception of Thingol, all the tallest Children of Illuvatar are from those two houses.
 
  1. The Dragon-Helm was made for Azaghal, King of Belegost.
  2. He gave it to Maedhros after the Elf saved his life in a battle in the east.
  3. Maedhros gave it to Fingon as (one of many) friendship gifts, and to commemorate his victory over Glaurung. So in part this is similar to having Narsil made for Aegnor.
  4. Fingon gave it to Hador, probably when Fingolfin made the Mortal the lord of Dor-Lomin.

The Hosts want to de-emphasize it being too heavy to wear, to avoid it being perceived as the mathom that nobody wants. Personally, I think we can do that without changing its story. I think we can emphasize that it's a royal gift signifying friendship and (in Hador's case) lordship, and kinda ignore (or just not mention) that it's too heavy for most non-Dwarves to wear comfortably.

  • Telchar gives it to a Dwarf-King because he's a king. I can't recall if he's her king, but if not then it's a sign of friendship between Nogrod and Belegost, maybe commissioned by Nogrod's king.
  • Azaghal gives it to Maedhros because his life was saved.
  • Maedhros gives it to Fingon for lots of reasons. He's the only person I can imagine emphasizing that the helm doesn't work for him: Orcs fear his own face far more than any Dwarf-mask!
  • Fingon gives it to Hador to signify that he is now the lord of his people, and from now on Fingolfin will only indirectly rule the Hadorians.
 
Oh I forgot to add, Andreth definitely didn't marry anyone else after Aegnor rejected her. It's a significant part of her character that I wouldn't want to get rid of. I prefer Ange1's idea of Andreth dying right before Aegnor does, and the sword being recovered by Emeldir.
 
Andreth has no descendants. She does, however, have several nieces and nephews. An elf could try to deliver Aegnor's sword to Andreth, and, finding her dead, gives it to a relative. That could be how we reveal that she didn't outlive Aegnor, or we could show her death before hand. Depending on how we tell their story, that could be a particularly sad coda.

Or we could use the Emeldir-picks-it-up-off-the-battlefield idea. This will be an issue for the Season 5 finale. The advantage here is that it emphasizes the chaos and disarray after the battle.


Telchar is a dwarf of Nogrod, but she has been affiliated with Belegost in our story, simply because Nogrod wasn't interested in establishing diplomatic relations with the Sindar, and Telchar's master (Gamil Brog) had students of both Nogrod and Belegost and got her involved with arming the elves of Doriath. Which is to say....she's still 'of Nogrod', but likely has her set-up in Belegost these days.

So, yeah, she'll likely make the Dragon-helm as a commission for Azaghal directly.
 
I'm realizing (perhaps belatedly) that depending on how the Dwarves of Nogrod end up sacking Doriath, they may have to have a diplomatic and economic relationship with Doriath first. At least if we use the version in the book, the Dwarves who are commissioned to make the Nauglamir, who then kill Thingol, are from Nogrod.

I'm also still wary of painting them as unfriendly or bad from the start, like telegraphing that they're going to be villains, or depicting a whole society as entirely unfriendly for all of many centuries.

Which is to say that I'd rather show Nogrod start trading and working with Elves. Neither city has any reason to like or trust Morgoth, so it's in their best interest to ally with his enemies.
 
I'm realizing (perhaps belatedly) that depending on how the Dwarves of Nogrod end up sacking Doriath, they may have to have a diplomatic and economic relationship with Doriath first. At least if we use the version in the book, the Dwarves who are commissioned to make the Nauglamir, who then kill Thingol, are from Nogrod.

I'm also still wary of painting them as unfriendly or bad from the start, like telegraphing that they're going to be villains, or depicting a whole society as entirely unfriendly for all of many centuries.

Which is to say that I'd rather show Nogrod start trading and working with Elves. Neither city has any reason to like or trust Morgoth, so it's in their best interest to ally with his enemies.
Maybe Finrod entreats with the Dwarves of Nogrod, who make the Nauglamir, with Telchar being known for her work with weapons and the Dwarves of Nogrod for their jewelry? Then Thingol gets wind of it and this is when it asks if they can combine the Silmaril with the Nauglamir after Hurin brings it to Doriath from Nargothrond, after which the Dwarves of Nogrod kill him.
 
I like the idea of Finrod persuading them to open up, but I don't want the Nauglamir made until Thingol gets the Silmaril. That's a change made by Christopher Tolkien that I want to undo. I've suggested other things that the Dwarves can make for Finrod -- things that don't violate Thingol's ban against Noldor wearing jewelry.
 
Yes, the context of the Nauglamir within the environment of the Ban (since we have extended the Ban to something visible, ie, gems) will definitely be a topic we have to discuss. The version in the published Silmarillion may not work. But, so far, the Hosts have requested that a young Zirak make the Nauglamir for Finrod early on, and then an old and venerable Gamil Zirak be called in by Thingol to rework the piece with the silmaril. Making the Nauglamir before the Ban will be rather difficult to pull off, I think, though we will definitely want to show Finrod/Dwarf gifts and friendship.

As for Nogrod...their disinterest in establishing diplomatic relations with the Sindar is that they were of the opinion that this 'primitive' people had nothing to offer them. They dismissed them as irrelevant. That was...a first impression, not a final one. Once orcs invaded Beleriand, the dwarves of Nogrod came to different conclusions (as I think we had them fighting alongside dwarves of Belegost in the battle in which Denethor died?)

Also, now that the Noldor are on the scene, the dwarves will likely form a rather different opinion of the value of elves. The Noldor are skilled craftsmen who no doubt surpass the dwarves in some areas, and value the work of the dwarves in general. The Noldor/Dwarf relationship ought to be a much more positive and less tentative connection than the Sindar/Dwarf relationship has been.

But regardless, it's not that the dwarves of Nogrod are 'bad' characters or that they hate/mistrust the Sindar from the start. They're just rather dismissive, and take some time to re-evaluate their first impression. They also have the Green Elves of Ossiriand as neighbors, and there's no friendship there at all.
 
My suggestion is that they offer to make beautiful jewelry, and Finrod declines because he respects Thingol and the ban. (Kind of an easter/egg joke about the Nauglamir in the 1977 Silmarillion.) Instead, the Dwarves present him with lighting of the kind that illumines Menegroth: beautiful lights in gorgeous glass and metal settings, as chandeliers or as sculptures of trees, flowers, Elves, or abstract sculpture.
 
Update on where we are with the Narsil storyline, based on Session 6-11 (Finale of the Beren and Lúthien Season):

Season 4
1) Aegnor's sword breaks during the Dagor Aglareb.
2) Maedhros commissions Telchar to make a new sword for Aegnor.
3) Telchar forges Narsil.
4) Maedhros gifts Narsil to Aegnor

Season 5
5) Aegnor uses Narsil in the Dagor Bragollach.
6) Aegnor dies in battle against balrogs.
7) Narsil is recovered and delivered to Finrod, Aegnor's brother.
8) Finrod gives Narsil to Andreth, Aegnor's love.

Season 6
9) Andreth lives in the Forest of Brethil, keeping Narsil.
10) Andreth passes Narsil on to Emeldir.
11) Emeldir takes Narsil and the remnant of the House of Bëor to Dor-lómin.


Our goal is for Narsil to become 'the sword of the Faithful'...but our most immediate challenge is to keep it out of the Hill of the Slain after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad in Season 7.

Prior to this, the most extensive discussion of the Narsil storyline was in Session 5-29 (the Culture of the Edain). This was where we had discussed Túrin passing over Narsil in favor of Gurthang while living in Brethil, though that is (sadly) unlikely to fit into our story moving forward.

1) Season 4 - Narsil is forged by Telchar. Narsil is commissioned by Maedhros as a gift for Aegnor, whose sword broke in the Dagor Aglareb.

2) Season 5 - After Aegnor's death in the Dagor Braggolach, Finrod will gift this sword to Andreth, in memory of his brother.

3) Andreth will join the refugees from Dorthonion in Brethil. The sword will become a treasured heirloom among the Haladin.

4) Narsil will make its way to the Havens by the end of the First Age.

5) During the Third Kinslaying, Maedhros will recognize Narsil and pick it up as spoils from the battle. His brother Maglor will pick up a young Elrond and Elros.

6) Elrond will be gifted Narsil by Maedhros at some time before the end of the War of Wrath. Narsil will be Elrond's sword while he serves as Gil-galad's herald.

7) At some point during the Second Age, Elrond will gift Narsil to a Numenorean who aids the Elves in their battles in Middle-earth against Sauron. This individual will either be a Lord of Andúnië, or their descendants will be. Narsil becomes the sword of the Faithful.

8) Amandil will gift Narsil to Elendil prior to the drowning of Númenor.

...and we know the rest from there.
 
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Emeldir takes Narsil and the remnant of the House of Bëor to Dor-lómin
This is a super helpful recap of what I'm sure was a lot of discussion in several places, thanks @MithLuin !

Are we to understand that the two numerical sequences in your post above are intended to map to each other directly or that they are alternative options that have been proposed but not decided? The typed one appears to be decisional while the lower pasted one sounds more notional. Rather than become an heirloom among either the Haladin or Hadorians I'd really like to see Narsil stay in Beorian hands, if it can be managed.

Although I must admit that the idea of the sword coming back to the Edain in the second age from the hand of Elrond is an unexpected and cool concept. However, if we make that choice (Narsil is Elrond's primary sword in the first ~2 millenia of the second age through the first ring war) then we might have to abandon the idea of him using Hadhafang (Nana Idril's sword), unless we weren't even considering that movie-verse fact as a viable option for this story.
 
Oh, I am sorry that was unclear. The top list is based on the discussion in Session 6-11. It shows where we are right now in the story, and thus reflects decisions already made. The bottom list was the result of the discussion in Session 5-29. Naturally, the more recent discussion takes precedent, but not every aspect of the earlier discussion has been discarded, so it is included to show what our intent is, moving forward. Decisions that impact future seasons aren't final until we reach that future season. At that time, we may either adopt the idea we've had in mind for some time, or modify it to fit new details, or recognize that, while a cool idea, it no longer fits within the show.

As far as I know, there has been no intention to include Idril's sword Hadhafang as Elrond's sword, as was done in the PJ films.
 
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