Witchmolol Bool
New Member
Asynchronous viewer here. Started in 2022 and I hope to catch up by 2025.
At the beginning of the episode, the Professor brings up the topic of Orcs and how Tolkien himself never found a way to successfully fit them in the mythology of Middle-Earth. That is because Orcs originally used to be Elves, which means that it is not morally right to kill them indiscriminately and even celebrate their killing. However, I think it works, and here is why:
First, the quote from the published Silmarillion: "[...] all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Illuvatar; [...] And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Illuvatar."
Some questions come to mind:
1. Who even knows the true origin of the Orcs at the time of the events of LOTR? Surely all of the Elves who were alive then would know because they remember facing the very first generation of Orcs in battle. What of the newer generations of Elves? Does Legolas know the history of the Orcs? Perhaps he was told by his forefathers in the halls of Thranduil. He would hate Orcs only because they represent the forces of evil and corruption. Do the Dwarves know what Orcs truly are? They are not immortal and their lore is fading along with everything else in Middle-Earth. Men? Personally, I don't think they know or care.
2. Given that the Orcs are explicitly Elves that were captured and corrupted by "slow arts of cruelty", who then bred and made new generations of already-corrupted Orcs, that means that they are still Children of Illuvatar. Is it right to hate them and show them no mercy, particularly by the Elves who were alive then, and maybe would even remember what they looked like before the corruption? I believe so, and I shall try to make a case for it.
3. If one were to imagine the amount of corruption necessary to turn the fairest of the Children into the ugly vile creatures we know as Orcs, then it is not difficult to believe that they no longer remember who they were. If the Elves are immortal, are the Orcs also immortal? Are there living Orcs at the time of LOTR that were originally part of the Elves who came into Middle-Earth near Cuivienen? They would be the only ones who might remember why they hate their Master, while the subsequent generations would hate Morgoth (and later Sauron) just out of simple fear and the harsh life they are born in. So whatever there is of their original racial identity is all but lost to them.
4. Is it right to kill them indiscriminately, mercilessly? I believe there is mercy in that. In killing them, they are released from the clutches of the Dark Lord, because however hard he batters their souls until there is little left, that little is still the gift of Illuvatar which not even Morgoth (much less Sauron) could take away or destroy. Therefore, we can imagine that after an Orc is killed, that battered essence that is the life given by Illuvatar will go back to the halls of Mandos. To be stored until the End of Days, when Illuvatar will reveal their destiny? To slowly undergo "soul therapy" under Mandos, possibly aided by Nienna? I can't make any claim in this sense, but to me it seems that the available published text allows for this kind of interpretation.
Finally, is it right to hate Orcs? Generally yes, in the case of most free peoples, a good enough reason to hate them is their way of being and the Master they serve. But for Elves, particularly the very first generations of Elves, it is all the more right to hate them, not for themselves, not for the stunted souls they have, but for "the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Illuvatar", a deed that caused the Elves thousands of years of pain and suffering. To kill the Orcs is mercy, it is just, it is morally the right thing to do, for they cannot be saved by any save Illuvatar himself.
To conclude, I do believe the published version of the origin of Orcs works well within the mythology, because it is the most poignant. It demonstrates that Melkor's most evil act isn't wanton destruction, but the prolonged suffering caused upon the First Children of Illuvatar, and how that evil is still present in the world long after his banishment. And it also adds a layer to the bittersweetness of the character of Elves. They know what they're facing, and they've known since their early days. I'm not certain that if you asked Elrond, or Cirdan, or Galadriel if they hated Orcs, what their answer would be (but it would probably make me tear up a little).
Later edit: some corrections and small changes; nothing substantial was altered.
At the beginning of the episode, the Professor brings up the topic of Orcs and how Tolkien himself never found a way to successfully fit them in the mythology of Middle-Earth. That is because Orcs originally used to be Elves, which means that it is not morally right to kill them indiscriminately and even celebrate their killing. However, I think it works, and here is why:
First, the quote from the published Silmarillion: "[...] all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Illuvatar; [...] And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Illuvatar."
Some questions come to mind:
1. Who even knows the true origin of the Orcs at the time of the events of LOTR? Surely all of the Elves who were alive then would know because they remember facing the very first generation of Orcs in battle. What of the newer generations of Elves? Does Legolas know the history of the Orcs? Perhaps he was told by his forefathers in the halls of Thranduil. He would hate Orcs only because they represent the forces of evil and corruption. Do the Dwarves know what Orcs truly are? They are not immortal and their lore is fading along with everything else in Middle-Earth. Men? Personally, I don't think they know or care.
2. Given that the Orcs are explicitly Elves that were captured and corrupted by "slow arts of cruelty", who then bred and made new generations of already-corrupted Orcs, that means that they are still Children of Illuvatar. Is it right to hate them and show them no mercy, particularly by the Elves who were alive then, and maybe would even remember what they looked like before the corruption? I believe so, and I shall try to make a case for it.
3. If one were to imagine the amount of corruption necessary to turn the fairest of the Children into the ugly vile creatures we know as Orcs, then it is not difficult to believe that they no longer remember who they were. If the Elves are immortal, are the Orcs also immortal? Are there living Orcs at the time of LOTR that were originally part of the Elves who came into Middle-Earth near Cuivienen? They would be the only ones who might remember why they hate their Master, while the subsequent generations would hate Morgoth (and later Sauron) just out of simple fear and the harsh life they are born in. So whatever there is of their original racial identity is all but lost to them.
4. Is it right to kill them indiscriminately, mercilessly? I believe there is mercy in that. In killing them, they are released from the clutches of the Dark Lord, because however hard he batters their souls until there is little left, that little is still the gift of Illuvatar which not even Morgoth (much less Sauron) could take away or destroy. Therefore, we can imagine that after an Orc is killed, that battered essence that is the life given by Illuvatar will go back to the halls of Mandos. To be stored until the End of Days, when Illuvatar will reveal their destiny? To slowly undergo "soul therapy" under Mandos, possibly aided by Nienna? I can't make any claim in this sense, but to me it seems that the available published text allows for this kind of interpretation.
Finally, is it right to hate Orcs? Generally yes, in the case of most free peoples, a good enough reason to hate them is their way of being and the Master they serve. But for Elves, particularly the very first generations of Elves, it is all the more right to hate them, not for themselves, not for the stunted souls they have, but for "the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Illuvatar", a deed that caused the Elves thousands of years of pain and suffering. To kill the Orcs is mercy, it is just, it is morally the right thing to do, for they cannot be saved by any save Illuvatar himself.
To conclude, I do believe the published version of the origin of Orcs works well within the mythology, because it is the most poignant. It demonstrates that Melkor's most evil act isn't wanton destruction, but the prolonged suffering caused upon the First Children of Illuvatar, and how that evil is still present in the world long after his banishment. And it also adds a layer to the bittersweetness of the character of Elves. They know what they're facing, and they've known since their early days. I'm not certain that if you asked Elrond, or Cirdan, or Galadriel if they hated Orcs, what their answer would be (but it would probably make me tear up a little).
Later edit: some corrections and small changes; nothing substantial was altered.
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