Only a Small Part in Great Deeds - Another Look At Gandalf's Response to Bilbo

Rachel Port

Well-Known Member
'Of course, my dear Bilbo,' said Gandalf. 'If you had really started this affair, you might be expected to finish it. But you know well enough now that starting is too great a claim for any, and that only a small part is played in great deeds by any hero. You need not bow! Though the word was meant, and we do not doubt that under jest you are making a valiant offer. But one beyond your strength, Bilbo. You cannot take this thing back. It has passed on. If you need my advice any longer, I should say that your part is ended, unless as a recorder. Finish your book, and leave the ending unaltered! There is still hope for it. But get ready to write a sequel, when they come back.'

I found myself bristling in class at the interpretation given Gandalf's response to Bilbo's offer to take the Ring to the Fire. So I want to look at the speech and why I reacted that way, and perhaps to reach another interpretation.

First of all, I don't see Gandalf's tone as careful so much as gentle and affectionate. Much was said in class about Gandalf's concern for how Bilbo will react to being near the Ring again. No doubt both he and Elrond had been concerned about it especially after Frodo was brought in near death. Yet Bilbo has been allowed to sit with Frodo during his illness, though not alone - I would imagine Gandalf or Elrond was there much of the time, and perhaps Aragorn or Glorfindel took a turn being a healer who could also be a guard. Sam was pretty much always there. It would have been cruel to keep him away. I think they relied on his love for Frodo in a "trust but verify" kind of way. And in the Council, everyone's respect for Bilbo matters.

This was not only to protect Frodo and the Ring, but to protect Bilbo. I think they both see Bilbo as being in their care, and have been watching his recovery for 17 years. When Gandalf told Frodo Rivendell should be his destination, he knew that Bilbo was there, after all. And the night before the Council, with Frodo newly recovered, the reunion takes place in the Hall of Fire. And in the Hall of Fire, Bilbo is tempted - he asks to see the Ring again, and Frodo's response is horror and revulsion, which Bilbo sees. He responds:

"I understand now," he said. "I am sorry, sorry you have come in for this burden, sorry about everything. Don't adventures ever have an end? I suppose not. Someone else always has to carry on the story. ..."

This is similar to Gandalf's words in the Council, and Bilbo found it out for himself. And I think there is some understanding between Bilbo and Gandalf about what happened the night before. Gandalf may have witnessed the exchange between Bilbo and Frodo, and if he could not hear the words, he saw the change in Bilbo's expression, and his telling Frodo to put it away, and the sadness that followed - and saw Bilbo defuse the situation. Or Bilbo may have said something about it that morning before Frodo joined them. Probably both - after all, nobody tried to stop Bilbo and Frodo from going off together where the two of them and the Ring spent several hours alone together, and Gandalf doesn't even come to check up on them, but sends Sam to take Frodo to bed. This seems to indicate that he no longer is worried about their safety alone together, which would mean, he already knew something about Bilbo's new insight.

So Gandalf is not afraid of a reaction like the one Bilbo had at Bag End as Gandalf helped him give up the Ring. He knows that Bilbo understands what he is saying in a way others cannot. So this answer is also intimate. Gandalf is helping Bilbo remember what he has learned, and he helps Bilbo take it a step further so he can recognize that "It has grown, and I have not." These are two friends with great affection for each other, and this exchange is at once personal and public in a way that shows the Council Gandalf's respect for Bilbo. This respect is also preserved by not telling the story of that scene in Bag End. Both Gandalf and Elrond have decided this beforehand, I think.

Does the Ring still have some pull for Bilbo? Of course. We see it even after the Ring has been destroyed, when he asks Frodo about his Ring as the hobbits visit him on their way home. But that is not the dominant concern in Gandalf's answer to his offer.
 
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Hi Rachel,

I have sometimes wondered whether Bilbo wouldn't have been a better choice for Ring-bearer than Frodo, and only Gandalf's preconceptions about Bilbo's potential vulnerability to the ring prevented this.

Bilbo has more experience with adventure and daring-do and sneaking into places than Frodo. Bilbo volunteers more promptly and readily than Frodo. Bilbo has actually given up the Ring before (sure, with a little prompting) whereas Frodo could not even throw it in his hearth fire. Why would anyone think he could throw it into Mt. Doom? Could Bilbo have thrown the Ring into the Fire? Who knows, but his track record in giving up the Arkenstone is certainly in his favor. Gandalf may be worried that the Ring has gained some hold on Bilbo. It has probably gained more hold on Frodo in the short time since he left the Shire than it gained on Bilbo in the 61 years he possessed it. Frodo has been wounded by the Morgul-knife, with unknown future consequences. Bilbo is still hale and hearty (I assume he has the physical condition of a Hobbit of between 50 and 67 years old, due to the suspension of aging while he held the Ring? Frodo is 50, after all. Bilbo cannot be physically very much more aged, movie depictions not withstanding.) At this point, Bilbo may have a greater understanding of the Ring, and wisdom about how to deal with it than Frodo does.

Every time I read Bilbo's volunteer during the Council of Elrond, I an tempted to think, "Come on Elrond and Gandalf! Forget your pre-conceptions! It is obvious that Bilbo is the best choice for Ring-bearer!"

Also, if Frodo could give the Ring up to anyone at the time of the Council (and it is possible that he still could - he has offered it to Gandalf, and will offer it to Galadriel) he is probably most likely, with the least harm to himself, to be able to give it back to Bilbo.
 
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Also, if Frodo could give the Ring up to anyone at the time of the Council (and it is possible that he still could - he has offered it to Gandalf, and will offer it to Galadriel) he is probably most likely, with the least harm to himself, to be able to give it back to Bilbo.

Given Frodo's reaction to Bilbo's reaching out for it in the Hall of Fire, I would not count on his being able to give it up to Bilbo.

I don't really think Bilbo could have endured the journey through Mordor. Think of how physically draining it is for Frodo to carry the Ring, getting worse the closer he gets to Mt. Doom. Frodo has only had the Ring for 17 years. Bilbo, being much older, had the Ring for 61 years - just think how much more difficult it would be for him.
 
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Why would it have been more difficult for Bilbo to carry the Ring than Frodo? Frodo has come a lot closer to wraithification (from the Morgul-knife, rather than from the Ring) than Bilbo. Maybe Bilbo would have carried the Ring more lightly than Frodo?
 
Because the Ring started out with more of a hold on Bilbo, which would have become greater as the Ring became stronger. He has laid claim to it much more strongly than Frodo, so it would if anything be heavier, not lighter.
 
Because the Ring started out with more of a hold on Bilbo, which would have become greater as the Ring became stronger. He has laid claim to it much more strongly than Frodo, so it would if anything be heavier, not lighter.
Not necessary. See the effect on Gollum. He is a shadow of his former self, but he does not lack endurance nor resourcefullness and he is more immune to the Mordor enviroment than the hobbits. According to that Bilbo should be more "at home" in Mordor than Frodo, exactly because he had the ring longer in his possesion and had used it more.
 
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I think we've gotten sidetracked - this really has nothing to do with my original post. I too easily get interested in side questions.
 
Gollum held the Ring for about 478 years. At the time of the Council of Elrond, he has lived 77 years after losing the Ring.

Bilbo held the Ring for 60 years. At the time of the Council, he has lived 17 years since giving the Ring up.

Frodo has held the Ring for 17 years at the time of the Council..
 
Flammifer, I'd be interested to know what you think of what I actually wrote. I wrote it because I wanted to know what people thought about it. It's a different interpretation than the professor presented in class, which I don't think is supported by other events in the text. What do you think?
 
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Hi Rachel,

I think I mostly agree with you, that Gandalf's comments are more gentle and affectionate than careful. Possib,ly due, in part, to the conversation Gandalf and Bilbo had before the Council. However, I do think that Gandalf and Elrond are more paranoid about the Ring's effect on Bilbo, and more dubious about Bilbo than they probably should be.

As I said, I think, Bilbo's offer to carry the Ring to Mordor, should have been given more objective consideration. It was dismissed so swiftly (I think) more because of Gandalf and Elrond's prejudices than rational and objective evaluation.

Of course, we don't really know how much Gandalf and Elrond know about the Ring and its properties. Probably, they are working from limited knowledge (and some of that coming from a suspect source), so they have reasons to be cautious. However, why they would think that Bilbo would be at any more risk of sub coming to the Ring than Frodo, is, I think mostly due to their pre-conceived notions that Bilbo needed to 'recover', and Gandalf's alarm at Bilbo's actions when handing over the Ring (an alarm perhaps exaggerated by his sudden worry and fears).
 
And yet they allowed Bilbo and Frodo and the Ring to be alone together for hours the night before, and didn't even check on them. That's not exaggerated anxiety and fear, and I think it's the greatest inconsistency. Gandalf and Elrond, of course, have another source of possible knowledge about the Ring, since both of them are bearers of Elven-rings. I think their concern about Bilbo is genuine and based in affection - what they are trying to understand is the Ring's affect on mortals.

I think the one drawback of the kind of micro-analysis this class does (which I thoroughly enjoy) is a tendency to over-diagnose, to see things as darker and more sinister than they are. Gandalf is not engaging in hobbitry with Bilbo because of the situation - the Council is a setting where responding to Bilbo in kind would be inappropriate. They are deciding the fate of the world, which has by some chance or fate fallen on the people in that room. Bilbo is Bilbo, and his tone is part of who he is, but even Gloin merely smiles. Gandalf's sentence structure falters (and sounds to me completely natural) because he is interrupting himself to respond to Bilbo's bow. He is making clear to the audience how seriously he takes Bilbo, and that Bilbo does deserve the word hero. I don't think he is waiting with bated breath for Bilbo's response, fearing possible anger. He knows that they do agree - now finally - about this issue, whatever relapses may come.
 
As I said, I think, Bilbo's offer to carry the Ring to Mordor, should have been given more objective consideration. It was dismissed so swiftly (I think) more because of Gandalf and Elrond's prejudices than rational and objective evaluation.
I do totally agree. They do seem more emotionally invested into Bilbo than Frodo imho, how harsh it sounds.

Of course, we don't really know how much Gandalf and Elrond know about the Ring and its properties. Probably, they are working from limited knowledge (and some of that coming from a suspect source), so they have reasons to be cautious. However, why they would think that Bilbo would be at any more risk of sub coming to the Ring than Frodo, is, I think mostly due to their pre-conceived notions that Bilbo needed to 'recover', and Gandalf's alarm at Bilbo's actions when handing over the Ring (an alarm perhaps exaggerated by his sudden worry and fears).

Bilbo has given the Ring up once already as such can be expected to manage it a 2nd time. Bilbo had some success in his first quest, he is an experienced adventurer, and has some basing fighting and espionage experience. Frodo has no such record.
Frodo is much weaker psychologically, as Bilbo came from an intact home and Frodo had a traumatizing childhood.
As such Bilbo's psyche is stronger to begin with and this is seen in his character.

EDIT: the only advantage which Frodo brings to the table is being younger than Bilbo. But this also means more naive, less wise and more likely to suffer from diverse "culture shocks" on the way.
 
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I do totally agree. They do seem more emotionally invested into Bilbo than Frodo imho, how hard it sounds.



Bilbo has given the Ring up once already as such can be expected to manage it a 2nd time. Bilbo had some success in his first quest, he is an experienced adventurer, and has some basing fighting and espionage experience. Frodo has no such record.
Frodo is much weaker psychologically, as Bilbo came from an intact home and Frodo had a traumatizing childhood.
As such Bilbo's psyche is stronger to begin with and this is seen in his character.

EDIT: the only advantage which Frodo brings to the table is being younger than Bilbo. But this also means more naive, less wise and more likely to suffer from diverse "culture shocks" on the way.

But that's not what this thread is about. Do you want to comment about Gandalf's answer to Bilbo - my interpretation is quite different from Prof. Olsen's. What do you think?
 
But that's not what this thread is about. Do you want to comment about Gandalf's answer to Bilbo - my interpretation is quite different from Prof. Olsen's. What do you think?
As far I understand the difference is that you stress more Gandalf's affection for Bilbo as being the driving factor for Gandalfs careful response to Bilbo's offer than Gandalf's fear of Bilbo's possible outburst? The affection is certainly great and plays a role, but fear not to provoke the other's demons cannot be fully discounted imho. If it were not there at all, the decission to dismiss Bilbo's offer without even dicussing it would be even less understandable.
 
That's part of it, but mostly I think it's because of what happened the night before, Bilbo's moment of insight with Frodo. I think Gandalf must have observed at least part fo that - he and Elrond were probably keeping an eye on Bilbo and Frodo to see how Bilbo would react to being near the Ring. I say they must have, because after the Earendil poem, Bilbo and Frodo went off alone together with the Ring, and spent several hours talking together without anyone checking up to make sure they were both still alive - indeed when Gandalf thought it was time for Frodo to sleep, he didn't come himself, but sent Sam.

Given that, I think it is highly unlikely that Gandalf was concerned he might get an angry response from Bilbo, and come closer to what Bilbo actually says - that he knows the Ring has grown and he hasn't.

As for your idea that Bilbo is physically as young and strong as he looks is questionable. I think it disregards the feeling he described to Gandalf in Bag End, of being tired, or feeling spread too thin. Gandalf has told Frodo that a mortal holding the Ring doesn't grow but just goes on. That is the effect the Ring has had on Bilbo, and I wouldn't count any more on his physical fitness.
 
The only evidence Gandalf and Elrond have about the physical fitness of a prior Ring-bearer (besides Bilbo) is Gollum. He is impressively physically fit, tough and wiry.
 
The only evidence Gandalf and Elrond have about the physical fitness of a prior Ring-bearer (besides Bilbo) is Gollum. He is impressively physically fit, tough and wiry.
True, but he is motivated in a way that Bilbo isn’t.
If this story followed modern movie tropes then Gollum definitely would have had a training montage to show us his dedication to his cause, and to explain his peak physical condition. Instead our evidence is that he’s been living off the land in a fairly active mode.

As far as we have evidence for, Bilbo has spent most of the last 15 years living a sedentary and scholarly life. Maybe the concern for his ability is less to do with his desire for the Ring or his apparent age, and more to do with a ‘spare tyre’.
 
Quite possible Anthony. However, as the Company will not leave Rivendell for two months, Bilbo would have ample time to get back in shape.
 
Why on earth are people arguing about whether Bilbo should have been chosen? How did that even get started? I'm tired of getting notified of comments that are about something I didn't start.
 
'Of course, my dear Bilbo,' said Gandalf. 'If you had really started this affair, you might be expected to finish it. But you know well enough now that starting is too great a claim for any, and that only a small part is played in great deeds by any hero. You need not bow! Though the word was meant, and we do not doubt that under jest you are making a valiant offer. But one beyond your strength, Bilbo. You cannot take this thing back. It has passed on. If you need my advice any longer, I should say that your part is ended, unless as a recorder. Finish your book, and leave the ending unaltered! There is still hope for it. But get ready to write a sequel, when they come back.'

I found myself bristling in class at the interpretation given Gandalf's response to Bilbo's offer to take the Ring to the Fire. So I want to look at the speech and why I reacted that way, and perhaps to reach another interpretation.

First of all, I don't see Gandalf's tone as careful so much as gentle and affectionate. Much was said in class about Gandalf's concern for how Bilbo will react to being near the Ring again. No doubt both he and Elrond had been concerned about it especially after Frodo was brought in near death. Yet Bilbo has been allowed to sit with Frodo during his illness, though not alone - I would imagine Gandalf or Elrond was there much of the time, and perhaps Aragorn or Glorfindel took a turn being a healer who could also be a guard. Sam was pretty much always there. It would have been cruel to keep him away. I think they relied on his love for Frodo in a "trust but verify" kind of way. And in the Council, everyone's respect for Bilbo matters.

This was not only to protect Frodo and the Ring, but to protect Bilbo. I think they both see Bilbo as being in their care, and have been watching his recovery for 17 years. When Gandalf told Frodo Rivendell should be his destination, he knew that Bilbo was there, after all. And the night before the Council, with Frodo newly recovered, the reunion takes place in the Hall of Fire. And in the Hall of Fire, Bilbo is tempted - he asks to see the Ring again, and Frodo's response is horror and revulsion, which Bilbo sees. He responds:

"I understand now," he said. "I am sorry, sorry you have come in for this burden, sorry about everything. Don't adventures ever have an end? I suppose not. Someone else always has to carry on the story. ..."

This is similar to Gandalf's words in the Council, and Bilbo found it out for himself. And I think there is some understanding between Bilbo and Gandalf about what happened the night before. Gandalf may have witnessed the exchange between Bilbo and Frodo, and if he could not hear the words, he saw the change in Bilbo's expression, and his telling Frodo to put it away, and the sadness that followed - and saw Bilbo defuse the situation. Or Bilbo may have said something about it that morning before Frodo joined them. Probably both - after all, nobody tried to stop Bilbo and Frodo from going off together where the two of them and the Ring spent several hours alone together, and Gandalf doesn't even come to check up on them, but sends Sam to take Frodo to bed. This seems to indicate that he no longer is worried about their safety alone together, which would mean, he already knew something about Bilbo's new insight.

So Gandalf is not afraid of a reaction like the one Bilbo had at Bag End as Gandalf helped him give up the Ring. He knows that Bilbo understands what he is saying in a way others cannot. So this answer is also intimate. Gandalf is helping Bilbo remember what he has learned, and he helps Bilbo take it a step further so he can recognize that "It has grown, and I have not." These are two friends with great affection for each other, and this exchange is at once personal and public in a way that shows the Council Gandalf's respect for Bilbo. This respect is also preserved by not telling the story of that scene in Bag End. Both Gandalf and Elrond have decided this beforehand, I think.

Does the Ring still have some pull for Bilbo? Of course. We see it even after the Ring has been destroyed, when he asks Frodo about his Ring as the hobbits visit him on their way home. But that is not the dominant concern in Gandalf's answer to his offer.
I like your interpretation, and I would like to add something about Bilbo's response. I hadn't thought about it before, but the fact that "Bilbo laughed" strikes me as important. I am reminded of the moment immediately after Frodo offers Galadriel the Ring: "Galadriel laughed with a sudden clear laugh." I think that the laughter of both Bilbo and Galadriel is a spiritual release -- both have been tempted, and both are released from temptation: in the Council Bilbo seals the initial release that started in Bag End - a recognition that he has given it up, and he, like Galadriel, is content to diminish.
 
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