Orchards of Nargothrond

Odola

Well-Known Member
I've found a reference from History of Middle-Earth regarding the Turin story:

"...the poem as in the Tale that the farmlands and orchards of Nargothrond were deserted lest the travellers should find the entrance to the caves..."

So there were "orchards of Nargothrond" before it has been closed off.

So Haerangil - here is the thread - what does belong inside?

And where exactly are those orchards located? Around Ringwil?

"As Turin and Flinding came south down the west bank of Narog the river hastened o'er the feet of the hills (1770), and the fields and orchards through which they passed ever narrowing twixt wall and water did wane at last to blossomy banks by the borders of the way (1812 -- 14) [...]Here the travellers crossed the foaming Ingwil, falling down from the hills, by a slender bridge; this is the first appearance of this stream (cf. The Silmarillion p. 122: 'the short and foaming stream Ringwil tumbled headlong into Narog from the High Faroth'), and the bridge over it is mentioned nowhere else. "
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This would suggest the area on the west bank of Narog North of Ringwil?
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Yeah, i was aware of that textual evidence...

I wonder if elven orchards might be disguised as wild orchards, not obvious to the first glance?
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Yeah, i was aware of that textual evidence...

I wonder if elven orchards might be disguised as wild orchards, not obvious to the first glance?
Turin seems to recognise them even after having been abandoned for years?
Or am I overinterpreting the passages above in the 1st post?

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Odola

Well-Known Member
Orchards and gardens certainly! The beleriandic elves should know cherry, apple, haw, plum, pear, walnuts, chestnuts, gooseberry, hips, cucumber, blackberry, peas, oat, wheat

Technically the Noldor should know oranges and olives as well but i doubt they grew in Beleriand.
Cherry - sweet or sour or boths?

Raspberry?
Hazel?
Elderberry?
Cornelian cherry (dogwood)?
Medlar?
Rosehips - Rose petals?
Currants?
Amelanchier ovalis - European serviceberry?
Barley?
Rye?
Buckwheat?
Millet?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Cherry - sweet or sour or boths?

Raspberry?
Hazel?
Elderberry?
Cornelian cherry (dogwood)?
Medlar?
Rosehips - Rose petals?
Currants?
Amelanchier ovalis - European serviceberry?
Barley?
Rye?
Buckwheat?
Millet?
One thing I've been thinking about a long time for Elvish agriculture is the idea of "food forests" which goes a step further than just "not monoculture". The idea of maintaining complete ecosystems seems quintessentially Elvish to me.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The name Yavanna means "Giver of Fruits," so I imagine the orchards in Valinor were quite impressive! We know that she had wheat fields, but I see no reason to think that there weren't a variety of plants in Yavanna's gardens. It is possible that Finrod has brought stock from Valinor with him, that he would plant in Middle-earth, but obviously the only textually supported item that was included was the treasures that he brought from Tirion. It's also possible that any seeds/cuttings brought out of Valinor would have perished in the crossing of the Helcaraxë. So maybe he is limited to the plants they find in Beleriand, or to seed stock from Valinor gifted by the Fëanoreans. There was an exchange between the camps early on that focused on providing grain to the Host of Fingolfin from the besain of Maglor's camp.

I did include apple orchards at Formenos in Season 2, but that script was written much later and never reviewed by the hosts of Silm Film. So, I hesitate to say that Silm Film includes apple orchards in Formenos. Still, I see no reason not to have apple orchards at Nargothrond. One 'crop' that tends to grow along with old apple trees is morels, so Nargothrond could have those as well.

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Odola

Well-Known Member
One thing I've been thinking about a long time for Elvish agriculture is the idea of "food forests" which goes a step further than just "not monoculture". The idea of maintaining complete ecosystems seems quintessentially Elvish to me.
You mean like the German "Meadow Orchand / Orchand Meadow" (Streuobstwiese) where you have diverse high big fruit trees with plenty space of left around and pasture for animals underneath?

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Fruits that are cultivated this way are: apples, pears, sweet cherries, sour cherries, plums, prune plums, mirabelle plums, greengages, apricots, peaches and walnuts.


Found one in England https://meadoworchard.org/garden-and-orchard/ and this has:
mint varieties, lemon balm, borage, sorrel, marjoram, echinacea, comfrey, St.John’s wort, valerian, elecampane, betony, chammomile, pulsatilla, rosemary, sage, fever-few, artichoke and lots more…

apple and pear varieties, medlar, cherry, plum, almond, mulberry, hickory, hazel, walnut, wild service tree, currants and goose-berries, goji berries, sea buckthorn, sechwan pepper, june berry and lots more

Echinacea, sechwan pepper and goji berries are exotic, june berry is an American origin version of snowy mespilus, but the rest seems fine.

 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
You mean like the German "Meadow Orchand" (Streuobstwiese) where you have diverse high big fruit trees with plenty space of left around and pasture for animals underneath?

View attachment 4384

Fruits that are cultivated this way are: apples, pears, sweet cherries, sour cherries, plums, prune plums, mirabelle plums, greengages, apricots, peaches and walnuts.

That's in the right direction, but food forest has a multitude of different plant and crop types. As I said, it's closer to a complete ecosystem.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
That's in the right direction, but food forest has a multitude of different plant and crop types. As I said, it's closer to a complete ecosystem.
That might be but were the food forests not American - e.g. all plants native? In the Old World most of the fruits and cereals were not, most originated either in the Near or the Far East - even if they reached Europe in the Neolithic, Bronze or Iron Age, as such most of those plants - of very different origins - would not simply build an ecosystem with themselves?
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Cherry - sweet or sour or boths?

Raspberry?
Hazel?
Elderberry?
Cornelian cherry (dogwood)?
Medlar?
Rosehips - Rose petals?
Currants?
Amelanchier ovalis - European serviceberry?
Barley?
Rye?
Buckwheat?
Millet?
Gooseberry / currants - melpo
Hazel - kottule/Kottulwe
Elderberry - gwindod
Cherry - Aibin/Aibios, what kinds not sure, cornelian cherry probably not, too northern climate, but sweet and sour cherry almost certainly both!
Wild rise berries, hips - kampin
Rye - losc/losg


Raspberry most likely
Medlar, unlikely as it is near eastern in origin and was introduced by the romans iirc
Serviceberry - unlikely, too southern in origin
Barley - possible, bit i like the idea it was introduced in the westlands by the early men
Buckwheat - same as barley
Millet - also possibly too southern/eastern for beleriand..
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Maybe, but wine is the one thing we know almost certainly was imported from Dor-winion, wherever that mysterious country may have been located (i prefer somewhere to the south of Beleriand in the uncharted regions somewhere west of later Gondor , so mediterranean climate in any way). But of course wine was also home to Valinor as we know...
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Maybe, but wine is the one thing we know almost certainly was imported from Dor-winion, wherever that mysterious country may have been located (i prefer somewhere to the south of Beleriand in the uncharted regions somewhere west of later Gondor , so mediterranean climate in any way). But of course wine was also home to Valinor as we know...
So figs, millet, medlar and lemons can be imported also from there, if needed?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
That might be but were the food forests not American - e.g. all plants native? In the Old World most of the fruits and cereals were not, most originated either in the Near or the Far East - even if they reached Europe in the Neolithic, Bronze or Iron Age, as such most of those plants - of very different origins - would not simply build an ecosystem with themselves?
Food forests are actually something that has been done much more recently around the world as people have come to understand the science behind it a bit better. Since the Elves are not European humans, I don't see a problem with them having advanced knowledge of how ecosystems work.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
Food forests are actually something that has been done much more recently around the world as people have come to understand the science behind it a bit better. Since the Elves are not European humans, I don't see a problem with them having advanced knowledge of how ecosystems work.
But does it work with those plants that we have confirmed for elves (I do not mean all of them, just some basic ones)? Has somebody managed to get such an ecosystem to work somewhere?
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Here is an example of a 'food forest' in the tropics:

Naturally, Beleriand is not semi-tropical, so you wouldn't use these species in Nargothrond. But the concept would work regardless of climate - as long as there is enough rainfall to support trees, and with a long enough growing season. Elves are not worried about a process taking some time to reach full potential. If you search for YouTube videos on food forests, one of the first channels you'll find is a guy in Canada.

And while it is true that the ancient examples, naturally, were of people relying on the plants that were native to their area and simply helping the desired plants along a bit, certainly people could work creatively with any organisms that are available to them. So, if the elves have access to plants imported from Valinor or elsewhere...they could grow those.

But certainly you can do permaculture or food forests in temperate or even more northerly climes. And yes, there are examples of starting with an apple orchard and going from there:
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
But does it worked with those plants that we have confirmed fo elves? Has somebody managed to get such a ecosystem to work somewhere (I do not mean all od them, some basic ones)?
Any
But does it worked with those plants that we have confirmed fo elves? Has somebody managed to get such a ecosystem to work somewhere (I do not mean all od them, some basic ones)?
I've definitely seen some of those plants as part of food forests, and if anyone can get an ecosystem to work, it's the Elves.
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
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https://www.glyphweb.com/arda/maps/nargothrond.png

We see there is also the potential of having goods shipped up the Nenning from Eglarest which is one of Cirdian's havens.
As such the orchards could pontentially have even grown potted palm trees shipped up in if required. - Theoretically we can make the orchards as grand as we ever want to!
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
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https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5d3f5ab4e0b0f80001519db3/1590162642372-7PP1W2BICQ8RT0C1GQWL/EAD6EA51-4E79-43CF-8695-5D720D554624.jpeg

As we see the caves of Nargothrond are slightly below Hobbiton and the orchards about the area of Hobbiton and above. But it much neared the ocean - less then half of the distance that Hobbiton has to the new shore - which would suggest a milder climate, on the other side Angband still in operation, which would suggest harsher winters.
But alltogether Hobbiton seems fine as an aproximation.
 
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