Orcs are 'spawned'?

[Flammifer]

In last night's class, in the passage where the company has fled the Chamber of Mazarbul, descended seven flights of stairs, after Gandalf's confrontation at the door, Gandalf says, "I must rest here a moment, even if all the orcs ever spawned are after us."

Do we think that Gandalf's use of the word "spawned" gives us any clues about the origins, or life-cycles of orcs? Or not?

 

[No One in Particular]

Not really. I take "spawned" in this context to be an elevated synonym for "born".

 

[Odola]

Not really. I take "spawned" in this context to be an elevated synonym for "born".

born in big numbers... Is is repeated many times over that orcs recover their big numbers relatively quickly.

 

[Willomir]

In last night's class, in the passage where the company has fled the Chamber of Mazarbul, descended seven flights of stairs, after Gandalf's confrontation at the door, Gandalf says, "I must rest here a moment, even if all the orcs ever spawned are after us."

Do we think that Gandalf's use of the word "spawned" gives us any clues about the origins, or life-cycles of orcs? Or not?

I love this question, because there is no answer for this mystery and remains open for interpretation to this day.

Personally I like the origin story of Warhammer 40K Orks, where they spawn like fungus:

Orkoid Fungus - Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum

wh40k.lexicanum.com

But this is about Middle Earth and not the Warhammer universe, so.... 😕

To be honest I did not like the recent Rings of Power orc family take:

It is too anthropomorphic in my humble opinion, since this anthropomorphism will turn Aragorn, Gimli & Legolas into heartless monsters and basically mass murderers instead of heroes...

 

[Odola]

I love this question, because there is no answer for this mystery and remains open for interpretation to this day.

Personally I like the origin story of Warhammer 40K Orks, where they spawn like fungus:

Orkoid Fungus - Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum

wh40k.lexicanum.com

But this is about Middle Earth and not the Warhammer universe, so.... 😕

To be honest I did not like the recent Rings of Power orc family take:

It is too anthropomorphic in my humble opinion, since this anthropomorphism will turn Aragorn, Gimli & Legolas into heartless monsters and basically mass murderers instead of heroes...

Well, Tolkien stated that orcs reproduce after the way of the Children of Iluvatar, it seems just that the recovery time of their populations is very fast: "For the Orkor had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance thereof, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. " J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), Morgoth's Ring, "Part Two. The Annals of Aman: Second section of the Annals of Aman", §45, pp. 73-74
and "There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known". J.R.R. Tolkien in the letter to Mrs. Munby from October 21st, 1963
And nuclear families do not allow fast recovery of population numbers. They provide social cohesion and stability, but have a certain growth limiting inertia when if it comes to responding fast for urgent restorative needs of a population in or after a crisis.

 

[Willomir]

Well, Tolkien stated that orcs reproduce after the way of the Children of Iluvatar, it seems just that the recovery time of their populations is very fast: "For the Orkor had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance thereof, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. " J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), Morgoth's Ring, "Part Two. The Annals of Aman: Second section of the Annals of Aman", §45, pp. 73-74
and "There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known". J.R.R. Tolkien in the letter to Mrs. Munby from October 21st, 1963
And nuclear families do not allow fast recovery of population numbers. They provide social cohesion and stability, but have a certain growth limiting inertia when if it comes to responding fast for urgent restorative needs of a population in or after a crisis.

So you agree that Aragorn, Gimli & Legolas are heartless monsters and basically mass murderers instead of heroes then...? 😀

 

[Odola]

So you agree that Aragorn, Gimli & Legolas are heartless monsters and basically mass murderers instead of heroes then...? 😀

No, because I was raised on historical novels of the 19th century, as was - in part - Tolkien also. War is war. Many people e.g. in WWII made notches on their riffles for every killed enemy. Nobody considered them monsters.

 

[Rob Harding]

I’d say ‘nobody’ may be an overstatement but II think that point is the key: monsters. Do we view orcs as monsters. And I think that’s open, as with all art, to personal interpretation. I’d say Tolkien leads us toward that, largely by the lack of information. It creates an in-word sense not only a of unknowable otherness but also a sense that there nothing to know. If there was something worth knowing, it would be delivered to us by the in-world authors. But they have not learned of it, seemingly because they have no interest in knowing more about orcs. To the fictional authors of the Red Book from whence much of the Middle Earth narrative comes, orcs are allowed to be seen as faceless monsters. Or at the very least, they are monstrous people and that is all that needs to be said. But for each reader, we may take that informational void and probe it. Tolkien has built a world in which our narrators are themselves part of the narrative. There is a metrication present as we are seemingly viewing a semi-biographic document for a lot of his major canon. So then, what stock the reader puts in the infallibility of the narrative becomes open for interpretation. Whether orcs are monsters or just the monsters of the narrators’ stories lies with the reader. And so, what is meant by ‘spawn’ is also open, in a sense. It certainly has dehumanising connotations; few people in all seriousness would talk of people they respect as spawning in large numbers (unless in loving jest). Everything is seen through a lens and, with so little known of orcs within the narrative proper, it’s hard to know exactly what to think of them.

Which I think is why I personally like the take on orcs in the Rings of Power. If you only see orcs fleetingly on the battlefield or clambering through mines, as perceived by others, they can be unknowable foes to be counted as they are slain. But if you are going to spend prolonged time amongst them with an orcish viewpoint, you need to make some decisions about how they perceive themselves and their own sense of culture. Of course, it doesn’t mean those choices will be to everyone’s taste but I have enjoyed the take on orcs in that show quite a bit so far. If anything, it still leans a tad too close toward ‘disposable’ for me.

 

[Odola]

Which I think is why I personally like the take on orcs in the Rings of Power. If you only see orcs fleetingly on the battlefield or clambering through mines, as perceived by others, they can be unknowable foes to be counted as they are slain. But if you are going to spend prolonged time amongst them with an orcish viewpoint, you need to make some decisions about how they perceive themselves and their own sense of culture.

It is technically impossible, having families would make it not possible for orc to replenish at a rate necessary for the in-story mechanics to work. That mechanics simply depends on their over-fast reproduction rate. No idea, however nice, can afford to break the obvious mechanics of a story, without making the audience feel being dismissed as stupid.

 

[Willomir]

We should also not forget Peter Jackson's take of Saruman's summoning of his Uruk-Hai army, which seems to be very close to Warhammer 40K's ork origin story, where these beings seem to be born fully mature from embryonic sacks:

Did Sauron teach Saruman to do this, where Saruman further improved on Sauron's method generating a stronger breed of orc as a result?

 

[Odola]

Did Sauron teach Saruman to do this, where Saruman further improved on Sauron's method generating a stronger breed of orc as a result?

Well, in LOTR book this "stronger breed of orc" is achieved explicitely by Saruman crossing orcs with Men - which actually makes Tolkien's later idea of orcs being mostly men-derived implausible. One does not get hybrid vigour from breeding within the very same (sub-)spieces.

 

[Willomir]

Well, in LOTR book this "stronger breed of orc" is achieved explicitely by Saruman crossing orcs with Men - which actually makes Tolkien's later idea of orcs being mostly men-derived implausible. One does not get hybrid vigour from breeding within the very same (sub-)spieces.

Because you said previously:

No, because I was raised on historical novels of the 19th century, as was - in part - Tolkien also...

...and we are talking about species at the moment, I was curious if you have also read the book 'On the Origin of Species' by Charles Darwin published on the 24th of November in 1859? It isn't exactly a novel, but it was a hugely controversial book for that time polarising society quite a bit:

This book was also quite influential on World War 1 posters demonising the opponent into brutish apes instead of something more devilish:

Seeing this World War 1 propaganda poster I wonder now if these posters were a source of inspiration for Tolkien to create his orc species?

In a previous forum post of mine ( https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/frodo-hallucinating.5525/post-51940 ) I suggested that the abbreviation E.L.F.S. (standing for: East London Federation of Suffragettes) might have been a source of inspiration for Tolkien's creation of the elves in Middle Earth.

Therefore I am currently wondering as well if an O.R.C. abbreviation (like Officers' Reserve Corps or something militaristic like that) might have been another source of inspiration for Tolkien to create the orc species next to the posters?
Would anyone know about other possibilities for the O.R.C. (or maybe even O.R.C.S.) abbreviation closely related to the World War 1 period perhaps?

With all this talk about the origin of species, I am now also getting curious on what Tolkien's stance was on eugenicism? 😕

 

[Odola]

Because you said previously:

...and we are talking about species at the moment, I was curious if you have also read the book 'On the Origin of Species' by Charles Darwin published on the 24th of November in 1859? It isn't exactly a novel, but it was a hugely controversial book for that time polarising society quite a bit:


This book was also quite influential on World War 1 posters demonising the opponent into brutish apes instead of something more devilish:

Seeing this World War 1 propaganda poster I wonder now if these posters were a source of inspiration for Tolkien to create his orc species?

In a previous forum post of mine ( https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/frodo-hallucinating.5525/post-51940 ) I suggested that the abbreviation E.L.F.S. (standing for: East London Federation of Suffragettes) might have been a source of inspiration for Tolkien's creation of the elves in Middle Earth.

Therefore I am currently wondering as well if an O.R.C. abbreviation (like Officers' Reserve Corps or something militaristic like that) might have been another source of inspiration for Tolkien to create the orc species next to the posters?
Would anyone know about other possibilities for the O.R.C. (or maybe even O.R.C.S.) abbreviation closely related to the World War 1 period perhaps?

With all this talk about the origin of species, I am now also getting curious on what Tolkien's stance was on eugenicism? 😕

About 'On the Origin of Species' by Charles Darwin - only excerpts, not the whole. But elements of social Darwinism were still quite alive in the older generations while I was a child.

Regarding ocrs, I think they far more inspired by the word itself:

Orc - Etymology, Origin & Meaning

"ogre, devouring monster," 1590s, perhaps a reborrowing of the same word that became Old… See origin and meaning of orc.

www.etymonline.com

orc​

"ogre, devouring monster," 1590s, perhaps a reborrowing of the same word that became Old English orcþyrs, orcneas (plural), which is perhaps from a Romanic source akin to ogre, and ultimately from Latin Orcus "Hell," a word of unknown origin. Also see Orca. Revived by J.R.R. Tolkien (1892-1973), who might have got it from Beowulf, as the name of a brutal race in Middle Earth."

 

[Willomir]

About 'On the Origin of Species' by Charles Darwin - only excerpts, not the whole. But elements of social Darwinism were still quite alive in the older generations while I was a child.

Regarding ocrs, I think they far more inspired by the word itself:

Orc - Etymology, Origin & Meaning

"ogre, devouring monster," 1590s, perhaps a reborrowing of the same word that became Old… See origin and meaning of orc.

www.etymonline.com

orc​

"ogre, devouring monster," 1590s, perhaps a reborrowing of the same word that became Old English orcþyrs, orcneas (plural), which is perhaps from a Romanic source akin to ogre, and ultimately from Latin Orcus "Hell," a word of unknown origin. Also see Orca. Revived by J.R.R. Tolkien (1892-1973), who might have got it from Beowulf, as the name of a brutal race in Middle Earth."

My parents are also very old-fashioned Christians and to this day they think Charles Darwin made a mistake (I disagree with them by the way).

What you said regarding orcs, can be said about elves too:

elf - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

elf​

Etymology​

From Middle English elf, from Old English ielf, ælf, from Proto-West Germanic *albi, from Proto-Germanic *albiz. Ultimately probably derived from Proto-Indo-European *h₂elbʰós (“white”). Doublet of alf, awf and oaf. The modern fantasy literature sense was popularised by the works of J.R.R. Tolkien.

Noun​

elf (plural elves or (now nonstandard) elfs)

1. (Germanic mythology) A supernatural being or spirit associated with illness, mischief, and harmful or dangerous magical influence; in later Norse sources, sometimes divided into benevolent light elves (inhabiting Álfheimr) and malevolent dark elves.
2. (folklore) A small, magical creature similar to a fairy, often mischievous, playful, or occasionally helpful.
3. (fantasy) A member of a race of tall, slender, graceful beings with pointed ears, typically immortal or very long-lived and possessing wisdom and magical abilities.
4. (obsolete) A very diminutive person; a dwarf.[1]
5. (South Africa) Bluefish (Pomatomus saltatrix).

However, inspiration does not have to originate from just a single source. I do not see why inspiration can come from multiple sources at once?
If you just take a look at the description of the orc-chieftain in episode 346 of 'Exploring The Lord of the Rings' podcast:

But even as they retreated, and before Pippin and Merry had reached the stair outside, a huge orc-chieftain, almost man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot, leaped into the chamber, behind him his followers clustered in the doorway. His broad flat face was swart, his eyes were like coals, and his tongue was red; he wielded a great spear.

Does that orc-chieftain description not match the enemy's visage in the World War 1 propaganda poster depicted in my previous post in this forum thread almost exactly?

I can even imagine a young Tolkien or one of his friends seeing this poster as young soldiers, and quip that the brute in the illustration is someone from the Officers' Reserve Corps (O.R.C.) stealing their E.L.F.S. girlfriend or something alike as hobbit-ry, hahaha. 😀 Who knows?

 

[Odola]

My parents are also very old-fashioned Christians and to this day they think Charles Darwin made a mistake (I disagree with them by the way).

What you said regarding orcs, can be said about elves too:

elf - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

elf​

Etymology​

From Middle English elf, from Old English ielf, ælf, from Proto-West Germanic *albi, from Proto-Germanic *albiz. Ultimately probably derived from Proto-Indo-European *h₂elbʰós (“white”). Doublet of alf, awf and oaf. The modern fantasy literature sense was popularised by the works of J.R.R. Tolkien.

Noun​

elf (plural elves or (now nonstandard) elfs)

1. (Germanic mythology) A supernatural being or spirit associated with illness, mischief, and harmful or dangerous magical influence; in later Norse sources, sometimes divided into benevolent light elves (inhabiting Álfheimr) and malevolent dark elves.
2. (folklore) A small, magical creature similar to a fairy, often mischievous, playful, or occasionally helpful.
3. (fantasy) A member of a race of tall, slender, graceful beings with pointed ears, typically immortal or very long-lived and possessing wisdom and magical abilities.
4. (obsolete) A very diminutive person; a dwarf.[1]
5. (South Africa) Bluefish (Pomatomus saltatrix).

However, inspiration does not have to originate from just a single source. I do not see why inspiration can come from multiple sources at once?
If you just take a look at the description of the orc-chieftain in episode 346 of 'Exploring The Lord of the Rings' podcast:


Does that orc-chieftain description not match the enemy's visage in the World War 1 propaganda poster depicted in my previous post in this forum thread almost exactly?

I can even imagine a young Tolkien or one of his friends seeing this poster as young soldiers, and quip that the brute in the illustration is someone from the Officers' Reserve Corps (O.R.C.) stealing their E.L.F.S. girlfriend or something alike as hobbit-ry, hahaha. 😀 Who knows?

Do not tempt me to start the whole theme of sprites, white as ancient colour of death and mourning, and elves being a kind of ancestral spirits. But elves being pale in Tolkien is doubtlessly connected to the word's ultimate connection to "white" - seen e.g. in "the Alps".

Ogres and hell-spirits have had certain aesthetics already established long before Tolkien, he just re-used it... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcus

 

[Willomir]

Do not tempt me to start the whole theme of sprites, white as ancient colour of death and mourning, and elves being a kind of ancestral spirits. But elves being pale in Tolkien is doubtlessly connected to the word's ultimate connection to "white" - seen e.g. in "the Alps".

Your comment about the whiteness relationship to the elves has been spooking in the back of my mind for quite some time now.
I understand that Tolkien created Middle Earth to give us an alternative history, but what is bothering me right now is the following question:
What was the initial motivation of Tolkien & his friends in the Tea Club, Barrovian Society for this requirement of an alternate history?

Were they insulted with Darwin's revelation that humanity descended from the same common ancestors as apes and originated from Africa?

How fascist was the Middle Earth idea from the very start with its white elves & swart orcs?
In a couple of years Corey Olsen is going to reach the Argonath and it wouldn't take much editing to make these statues do the wrong salute after all... just a straightening of the left wrists. 😳

After the horrors of the second World War, did Tolkien have a change of heart and made some rigorous U-turn changes to that hypothetical Barrovian literature project?
Is this why Tolkien wanted to make interbreeding between orcs & men therefore possible for Saruman to create his new Uruk-Hai species?

My apologies for sharing these controversial questions, which are currently floating unanswered in my brain, but I had to get them of my chest in the hope to get some clarification... 🙁

 

[Odola]

Your comment about the whiteness relationship to the elves has been spooking in the back of my mind for quite some time now.

Imho for Tolkien it was far more an issue of linguistics - if "elf" in its etymological origin means "white" - than that it is. And it seems quite feasible that it indeed does. Then the rest is merely a consequence, as "one does not dispute the facts".

I understand that Tolkien created Middle Earth to give us an alternative history, but what is bothering me right now is the following question:
What was the initial motivation of Tolkien & his friends in the Tea Club, Barrovian Society for this requirement of an alternate history?

Were they insulted with Darwin's revelation that humanity descended from the same common ancestors as apes and originated from Africa?

As far I understand in Tolkien's time - especially his youth the prevailing theory of human origin was the it began Asia "Out-of-Asia model", as such Tolkien made both his elves and humans originate there. The Out-of-Africa theory has then not "won' as yet. - And it is being challenged currently by Chinese scientists.

How fascist was the Middle Earth idea from the very start with its white elves & swart orcs?
In a couple of years Corey Olsen is going to reach the Argonath and it wouldn't take much editing to make these statues do the wrong salute after all... just a straightening of the left wrists. 😳

It was not, it was just Euro-centric in the same way just like most Chinese costume dramas nowadays are Sino-centric... - the world outside theoretically exists - it is just completely not relevant for the story. But Tolkien had the right intuition - he created three strains of Edain and indeed modern Europeans have been recently discovered to descent mostly from three distinct ancestral populations... I jest - this was pure accident, Tolkien just used the ancient significance of the number 3. 😉

After the horrors of the second World War, did Tolkien have a change of heart and made some rigorous U-turn changes to that hypothetical Barrovian literature project?

Do not think so, his worldview was set already, just like the current war will change the cultural attitudes of now teens far more than those in their 40s.

Is this why Tolkien wanted to make interbreeding between orcs & men therefore possible for Saruman to create his new Uruk-Hai species?

Well, forced-breading programs for humans seem abhorrent...

My apologies for sharing these controversial questions, which are currently floating unanswered in my brain, but I had to get them of my chest in the hope to get some clarification... 🙁

Not a problem, but imho it is best to remember who Tolkien was and who did he write for, he was a non-American writer, and while he was an anti-globalist culturally, he was still - as a convinced Catholic - an ultramontane universalist in regards to general basic human dignity.

 

[Willomir]

Thank you @Odola for answering all my secondary questions, however my first main question was skipped over:

I understand that Tolkien created Middle Earth to give us an alternative history, but what is bothering me right now is the following question:
What was the initial motivation of Tolkien & his friends in the Tea Club, Barrovian Society for this requirement of an alternate history?

Was this question overlooked, because this is unknown? Or is this something that is rather not talked about?

it is best to remember who Tolkien was and who did he write for, he was a non-American writer, and while he was an anti-globalist culturally, he was still - as a convinced Catholic - an ultramontane universalist in regards to general basic human dignity.

I know J.R.R.Tolkien was a genuine decent human being, but we have all been young, we all have been naive teenagers, mistakes were made, hard lessons had to be learned, hindsight is of course always 20/20, and as the saying goes: "If you haven't turned rebel by 20 you've got no heart; if you haven't turned establishment by 30 you've got no brains".
What I am curious about is, before the World Wars what did Tolkien's Tea Club, Barrovian Society group rebel against by requiring an alternate Middle Earth history?

A couple of years ago I finished reading the Commemorative Edition book 'Necronomicon, The Weird Tales of H.P. Lovecraft' and I was shocked by the racist n-word that was dropped a couple of times in the text. And when I was reading the following passage:

The Great Race seemed to form a single, loosely knit nation or league, with major institutions in common, though there were four definite divisions. The political and economic system of each unit was a sort of fascistic socialism, with major resources rationally distributed, and power delegated to a small governing board elected by the votes of all able to pass certain educational and psychological tests.

I was thinking "Yikes! Did Lovecraft support Hitler's national socialism (Nazi) ideology at the time?", and after checking his Wikipedia page it turns out he did:

H. P. Lovecraft - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

H.P. Lovecraft died on the 15th of March 1937, so he never got to learn that fascism would lead to the horrific genocides in the second World War, how wrong this actually is, and what for the survival & evolution of the human race is needed is biodiversity and that there is no such thing as a "Great Race". This period was also a time when medical doctors would prescribe cigarettes as medication for all kinds minor ailments, neurosurgeons considered lobotomy as a cure for epilepsy, psychiatrist would use electroshock therapy for many mental disorders, psychologists thought of homosexuality as a disease, all these practices of the previous century are now in the 21st century considered as appalling barbaric treatments. Again, mistakes were made, and lessons were learned.

So what I am still worried and also curious about is whether the Tea Club, Barrovian Society made a similar mistake with the Middle Earth concept initially? And has J.R.R. Tolkien later in life managed to rectify this mistake by throwing it proverbially all in the lava of Mount Doom?

 

[Odola]

Thank you @Odola for answering all my secondary questions, however my first main question was skipped over:

Was this question overlooked, because this is unknown? Or is this something that is rather not talked about?

Imho it is the "initial English grievance", the consequence that the English are NOT native to England, so they cannot have had a native local mythology, as that one was that of the Britons before them, and their English "imported mythology" did not take roots on the island the English conquered, as there was simply not enough historical time for that. If you follow the English heritage discourse, they do even deny that Celts ever existed - just to deny that their island had a grand, ancient, meaningfull and well-connected "life before the English"... 😉

 

[Rob Harding]

My two cents:

Firstly, on the note of Sauraman breeding orcs and men and whether Tolkien wanted to 'make it possible'. I'm not sure I really understand the premise of the question. He could make anything he wanted 'possible'. It was a fictional universe he created. If he wrote it, it existed. Sure, plot holes are a thing etc. etc. But in real terms, him wanting to make it possible seems a flawed concept. I think it gets dangerously close to the kinds of narrative that purports an author supports the decisions and practices of his characters. If anything, writing a character who is tragically flawed and turns to evil and thus, does the things Sauraman did, points to the idea that Tolkien's in-world narrators (if not directly Tolkien himself) saw such actions as evil. What I'm saying is, using a clearly bad character to highlight things Tolkien thought and felt, is probably not the best place to build an idea. If you find his heroes doing something abhorrent, then there are some interesting questions to ask. And, hey, people have found some stuff in their own readings before.

Which leads me onto orcs and colour and all of that. I think it's fair to say, if nothing else, Tolkien was a man of his time. From a lot of reading, I don't see anything to suggest he was against the prevailing attitudes of British patriotism in its most empirical sense. Whatever he thought, we can't know for certain but, it feels reasonable to maybe contrive that he was at the very least, white-centric by default and probably held some unseen prejudices that come with that. Does that make him evil? Maybe not. Does that mean he wrote characters who appeared different to him with sensitivity? Well...he didn't really write many heroes that were non Euro-centric. So that says plenty. Yes, he was trying to create a Euro-centric narrative but, as you pointed out, the WHY of that alone is...interesting. Does it make him racist? I don't know that it does. Does it mean maybe he had a narrow racial focus and was less interested in people groups he didn't directly belong to. Yeah, I think so. Is that inherently 'bad'? No. Is it limiting for a narrative and lead to some issues when exploring notably visually different characters who happen to be dark skinned and, of look, also villainous monsters when you don't have any heroes who aren't default-white to compare them to? Yeah. And, you know, that lack of nuance also kind of makes the orcs as villains a bit boring. But again, maybe that's what he was going for. They were fodder. But, again, maybe not the best look.