Orcs

That is something we've considered but I don't think it is necessary to include necromancy.
 
Well, the idea of necromancy being involved is our invention, to be sure, but it does give reason to why Sauron might call himself the Necromancer.
 
amysrevenge said:
OK, slightly updated:

A) Things already firmly established by this point (ie. by the end of S2)
A1) Orcs are going to be "built" out of Elves captured at Cuivienen.
A2) Sauron/Mairon is involved in this creation somehow, at least in the early stages we've seen so far.
A3) Dead Orcs are not filling up the Halls of Mandos, or if they are, we've never heard about it.
A4) Melkor/Morgoth cannot create life whole cloth.​

B) Things that seem to be a consensus among the team, but maybe haven't been stated explicitly "on screen"
B1) THIS SPACE DELIBERATELY LEFT BLANK
B2) Good guys are going to be killing Orcs. A lot of Orcs. They aren't going to feel bad about it, and we don't want the audience to feel bad about it either.
B3) Whatever Sauron/Mairon attempts to do to make Orcs, he doesn't succeed. When Melkor/Morgoth gets involved, he is the one to complete the job.​

I reckon A3 and B2 are the toughest nuts to crack.
Click to expand...

A3. So how many can fit in the Halls of Mandos?
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Well, the idea of necromancy being involved is our invention, to be sure, but it does give reason to why Sauron might call himself the Necromancer.
Click to expand...
Absolutely but since the orcs are supposed to be Morgoth's crime, not Sauron's, Sauron could develop his necromantic skills but that should perhaps not result in orcs.
 
Haakon said:
Absolutely but since the orcs are supposed to be Morgoth's crime, not Sauron's, Sauron could develop his necromantic skills but that should perhaps not result in orcs.
Click to expand...
Necromancy is a progression of soul manipulation started with the Maiar and continued with the orcs. That was the origin of the term based on the idea Marie had like a year ago.
 
We are all agreed that the final step of captive elves --> orcs happens after the return of Morgoth and is, among other things, a result of his hatred of the elves.

We're also agreed that it will happen largely off screen.

Therefore 'what happens?' in that final transformation can be anything - some necromancy, some forced breeding, some Morgoth forcing them into corrupt bodies, whatever. Stuff we will never speak of on screen ;). If we're going to have them worship Morgoth at the beginning of the process, that can be on screen.

It is going to have to happen fast - one episode, they're captive elves, and then the next, bang, we have an orc army. So we don't have time to show the process even if it weren't too grisly for the screen. If there is mystery there and the viewers are confused as to what happened, that's okay.

But regardless of all of that, Sauron does have an Island-of-Dr.-Moreau-esque workshop in Season 2, and he uses it to experiment on captive elves and to create werewolves.
 
MithLuin said:
We are all agreed that the final step of captive elves --> orcs happens after the return of Morgoth and is, among other things, a result of his hatred of the elves.

We're also agreed that it will happen largely off screen.

Therefore 'what happens?' in that final transformation can be anything - some necromancy, some forced breeding, some Morgoth forcing them into corrupt bodies, whatever. Stuff we will never speak of on screen ;). If we're going to have them worship Morgoth at the beginning of the process, that can be on screen.

It is going to have to happen fast - one episode, they're captive elves, and then the next, bang, we have an orc army. So we don't have time to show the process even if it weren't too grisly for the screen. If there is mystery there and the viewers are confused as to what happened, that's okay.

But regardless of all of that, Sauron does have an Island-of-Dr.-Moreau-esque workshop in Season 2, and he uses it to experiment on captive elves and to create werewolves.
Click to expand...
I'm totally on board with this. :)
 
After reading up I really have a déjà vu regarding the discussion of this topic.
But in the end we come to the same conclusions like last time. I suppose this is a good thing though !
 
Last edited:
Ren said:
After reading up I really have a déjà vu regarding the discussion of this topic.
But in the end we come to the same conclusions like last time. I suppose this is a good thing though !
Click to expand...
I'm not sure we're on the same spot that we were a week ago. Or that we agree on what should happen when the cameras aren't looking.


The issue of time is troubling me. If the time between scene with fallen elf captives and first scene with orcs is short, questions will arise about why we're not showing the scenes in between. The shorter time between, the weirder it gets. If the time is longer, the mystery is just a mystery, but in a good way. I'm a bit concerned that we might be forced to show things after all, if we don't go the other way and don't show Morgoth and the elf captives for example.
 
Last edited:
I actually meant the discussions we had last September, not last week, also in this thread. But I agree with your concern, not showing stuff or showing little has to be very well choosen and timed. If I understand you correctly, if we only show elf captives together with Mairon, and the occurrance of orcs only after Morgoth returned, the viewer perceives that as two separate story elements.

But then wouldn't that raise even more questions aside what's the origin of orcs, namely what happened to the elf captives? Are they still in prison and did they got to Mandos? Why not?
 
I guess the problem I have is one with Necromancy in general. But the problem is with me, not with the source material. To me, f-ing about with the spirits of things after they die seems so much of a bigger transgression directly against Illuvatar. Bad guys can do whatever to the bodies of their victims, but their spirits pass on to where they are supposed to go (this is a critical part of the Hurin/Morgoth interaction in the Narn, for instance). But if that can be stopped, that just seems so huge to me.

Unless maybe I'm taking a short view on "forever", and all those ring wraiths and barrow wights and fallen Elves will be returned to their proper kindreds once the world is ended, so all the Necromancy will ultimately be for naught. I don't know...
 
We can have a cutaway toward the end of Season 2 when Gothmog visits Mairon and asks, snarkily of course, how things are going. And Mairon, being a bit distracted, truthfully answers instead of dissembles. "I can't seem to get them to think of themselves as anything other than Elves. They hate me for trying to make them better." "Abhor is the correct word." Gothmog replies cheekily.

Then in Season 3, Morgoth speaks with Sauron and then disappears for a while. A few episodes later, we begin to see the orcs and Mairon/Sauron looking at Tevildo with a "I didn't do that" look.

I think that it absolutely makes sense to not show the process and keep a little bit of mystery for the audience. However, I think that we need to try and have some understanding, as world-builders, as to what goes on in the abstract. My personal head canon is that Mairon found a way to keep the fea of the elves from returning to Mandos when the hroa dies. And then he puts the fea back and, basically, reanimates the elves (which is why they abhor him). What Morgoth does is while the fea are kept 'in stasis', he infuses them with his will and, thus, corrupts them. And then he has Mairon put the corrupted fea back into the broken bodies of the elves and thus an orc is born. This would be another example of Morgoth marring Arda from its intended purpose. And as long as that will or Morgoth remains within Arda, then the orcs will continue to exist.
 
I understand concerns with necromancy - it's generally considered to be a terribly evil magic, and everyone brought back in this way hates it and wants to die (in most stories, anyway). There are very few stories where a necromancer is also a good person. I can't think of any, anyway.

Sauron is referred to as 'the Necromancer' in the Hobbit. That's really the only name he is given in that story, so that's a big part of his identity by the 3rd Age. Not surprisingly, Tolkien has some things to say about it ;).

“It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied, though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them. For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one’s own will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.”

“ For one of the hungry Houseless, if it is admitted to the friendship of the Living, may seek to eject the fea from its body; and in the contest for mastery the body may be gravely injured, even if it be not wrested from its righful habitant. Or the Houseless may plead for shelter, and if it is admitted, then it will seek to enslave its host and use both his will and his body for its own purposes. It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them.”​
 
Yes! Sauron is The Necromancer, Morgoth is not. Morgoth is the creator of the orcs; the process does not involve necromancy.
 
It sort of feels like an inconsistency to me, I guess. If all we had was the PubSil and related works, I would not predict that something like barrow wights or ring wraiths would even be possible (especially in the context of Hurin and Melkor and their "circles of the world" talk). But we have them, and beyond that we have the extraneous Tolkien talk about houseless spirits and all these details of necromancy. So it is possible, and therefore it's my understanding that is lacking.
 
Haakon said:
Yes! Sauron is The Necromancer, Morgoth is not. Morgoth is the creator of the orcs; the process does not involve necromancy.
Click to expand...

Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.

I wouldn't go too far into saying that Morgoth can't trap the spirits of the dead.

The original reason for making this the Super Secret Necromantic Orc Project was because we were going to steal the spirits of some of the elves before they even awakened. Now we are not doing that. We're capturing living elves.

But certainly 'spirit realm' stuff is involved in the creation of the werewolves.

If there is any ripping of spirits out of bodies, it can be shown bloodlessly on screen if we wanted to, would be a unique form of torture, and explain some of the horror behind the process. If we don't show it, we are free to speculate on what 'really happened.'
 
I'm not saying Morgoth could not do necromancy. Of course he could. It just doesn't seem to be his MO.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top