Orcs

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I’m not sure if you mean cross-breeding Trolls with Orcs. I don’t think different species can be crossed that way, except Ainur can breed with anything if they want.

We depicted Trolls as an attempt to improve in Orcs? If we did then it makes sense for them to be stronger and/or tougher than Orcs, even when not bigger.
Didn’t stop Saruman cross-breeding Orcs and Men to create Uruk-hai.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Orcs are derived from Children of Illuvatar, so yep, they can cross. Like Elves and Men, but with more horrible results. :eek: But Trolls aren’t descended from the same source.

Stone-Trolls are golems, and Olog-Hai are either corrupted from Ents, or else some other creatures. I think it would be something like trying to cross a human with a tree, a statue, or a gorilla.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Orcs are derived from Children of Illuvatar, so yep, they can cross. Like Elves and Men, but with more horrible results. :eek: But Trolls aren’t descended from the same source.

Stone-Trolls are golems, and Olog-Hai are either corrupted from Ents, or else some other creatures. I think it would be something like trying to cross a human with a tree, a statue, or a gorilla.
How did Morgoth or Sauron kidnap an Ent to make a troll?

I thought the Olog-Hai only show up during the late Third Age.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Olog-hai
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Yeah, Olog-Hai aren't in the First Age, I'm just pointing out they aren't going to breed with Orcs either.

And how? If it was Ents, maybe the Entwives were all enslaved... or little Entings were captured? Or maybe Olog-Hai came from some other origin.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I’m not sure if you mean cross-breeding Trolls with Orcs. I don’t think different species can be crossed that way, except Ainur can breed with anything if they want.

Did we depict Trolls as an attempt to improve on Orcs? If we did then it makes sense for them to be stronger and/or tougher than Orcs, even when not bigger.

Edit: grammar

See my new posts in "Trolls".

I think it just depends on how much of cybernetics, bioengineering plus sorcery we imagine Morgoth to use.I mean we'll still come to dragons...
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
A few more orc-quotes i have found. Just to finish the collection..

They would at least 'be'
real physical realities in the physical world, however evil they might prove, even 'mocking' the
Children of God. They would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would
be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be
going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence
– even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.) But whether
they could have 'souls' or 'spirits' seems a different question; and since in my myth at any rate I do
not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the
Valar, as a possible 'delegation', I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on
whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not
making them. That God would 'tolerate' that, seems no worse theology than the toleration of the
calculated dehumanizing of Men by tyrants that goes on today. There might be other 'makings' all
the same which were more like puppets filled (only at a distance) with their maker's mind and will or ant-like operating under direction of a queen-centre.,
The Orcs are
definitely stated to be corruptions of the 'human' form seen in Elves and Men. They are (or were)
squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and
repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types.
; Elves may turn into Orcs, and if this required the special
perversive malice of Morgoth, still Elves themselves could do evil deeds.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Hi there! This is not actually affecting silmfilm in the close sense any more, but i have written a fanfic article on the notion club archives which tries to find an explanation for the orc-soul problem.

The artikel is written from an in-verse point of view and so has to be taken with a grain of salt -we don't know if this or how much of it is true...

What do you guys think of it?

 
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