Remark to last line in the first stanza of the Eärendil Poem

Parwarzrah

New Member
Being new here, I wrongly posted this first in the general LOTRO Forum:

I am still catching up with past sessions and have now reached episode 117. Here in the first stanza of the Eärendil Poem, several interesting interpretations for the line
"and light upon her banners laid"
were discussed.
But I wondered whether this line refers to the act of unfurling and hoisting banners as part of the commissioning ceremony for Eärendil's ship (Vingilot)?

The line is the last in the first stanza and also concludes the description of how the Vingilot came into her existences (the second stanza switches to Eärendil's armor and gear). Until such a moment, those banners might have been rolled up and thus not exposed to the light - the sun's and/stars' light is laid on them and the ship is ready to start her long voyage. I am rather sure that a ship of such magnificence and importance required a solemn launching act before her first voyage and hoisting her sails and banners must have been inevitably a part of this ceremony.
Alternatively, the line could just refer the very moment, when their banner were hoisted for the first time, regardless of the particular circumstances.

And I could not help myself but think the following:
In the book (RotK, chapter 6), there is moment with a scene of a certain similarity (if we assume that the poem line is really to be understood as explained above):
...And then wonder took him [Eomer] , and a great joy ; and he cast his sword up in the sunlight and sang as he caught it . And all eyes followed his gaze , and behold ! upon the foremost ship a great standard broke , and the wind displayed it as she turned towards the Harlond . There flowered a White Tree , and that was for Gondor ; but Seven Stars were about it , and a high crown above it , the signs of Elendil that no lord had borne for years beyond count . And the stars flamed in the sunlight , for they were wrought of gems by Arwen daughter of Elrond ; and the crown was bright in the morning , for it was wrought of mithril and gold ...

I think this paragraph shows clearly that Tolkien attached great importance to such symbolic acts (otherwise he never would have taken so much pains of reminding the reader several time that the banner wrought by Arwen remains unfurled until this very moment), which in both cases mark the moment when hope starts to overcome despair (Eärendil journey was finally successful and Aragorn had just saved Minas Tirith and the Rohirrim from their inevitable destruction and disrupted Sauron's plans at this point.
One also might speculate whether the poem laid path for this development of the story, in particular, since it offered a meaningful way to give Arwen an important role and kind of presences which reinforced the connection between the events in the book and the (yet untold) history of the elder days.
Thus I believe that the poem as well as all other poems in the book form partly the foundation of the whole story, which would have never been possible without them.
 
But I wondered whether this line refers to the act of unfurling and hoisting banners as part of the commissioning ceremony for Eärendil's ship (Vingilot)?
An interesting thought! It's quite an intruiging line, the way the light is the subject of the sentence makes me instinctively think that the light is the 'main' part of this line (i.e. it's the one doing the emblamatic action) and that the banner's were simply having something being done to it. This makes me think that the banners were just there 'by default' so to say and could theoretically be replaced by any nautical equipment. However when reading your post it has opened up the thought that the banner's could, in fact, be the important object in the line.

Tolkien attached great importance to such symbolic acts

Yes! Although 'Symbolic' isn't the word I would use. As Corey would say, 'English Teachery'. All of Tolkien's places and people, while often representing abstract concepts, all 'literally' exist as objects independent of the ideas associated with them. For example, The White Tree is emblamatic of the decline of Gondor but is also an actual dead tree.

One also might speculate whether the poem laid path for this development of the story, in particular, since it offered a meaningful way to give Arwen an important role and kind of presences which reinforced the connection between the events in the book and the (yet untold) history of the elder days.

As always the feeling is of a deep and veiled history, I think the Eärendil poem conveys this sense of deep history particularly well, the number of names and concepts unknown to the Average reader. The fact that Frodo also listens to it in a very Romantic way (Negative Capability), seeing the places and characters as if they were real.
 
What bothered me when hearing the discussion in episode 117 was the matter of imaging the possible devices, contrivances or means, by which light could have been laid on the banners. I think that was mostly owed to the ubiquitous presence of powerful "men-made" light in our world.
Because within the confinement of LotR, the text to this particular point does not offer any "artificial sources" of light that would have had such power. The only possible sources of light are the sun, the moon and the stars - all creations of higher origins (the stars kindled by Varda/Elbereth, sun and moon by the Valars after the destruction of the trees, and even the Silmarils obtained their light from Telperion and Laurelin - which of course we cannot know from the text), which the reader might attribute to the unknown creator(s) of Middle-earth.
This determines in my opinion the dynamic of the scene painted in this line (unfurling the banners of a very beautiful ship towards the light), which I think is not so much about the banners or the light directly, but about Eärendil (who had tarried before) being ready (the ship is built and now he makes his determination known) to attempt a very perilous deed as a messenger (which is barely alluded in a line later in the poem ... He tarried there from errantry)
 
Just transferring from a previous thread an alternate reading of that line: "light upon her banners laid" can be interpreted as "lightly laid banners upon her".

Not sure if this makes more sense, or less, but it does eliminate the confusion about "what's the source of the light?"... I do like the idea of unrolling them to expose them to whatever light there may be, but I always read "light" as a poetic truncation of the adverb "lightly", at least until this class!
 
Tolkien is merely following long-established custom. Banners and flags, or other symbols of group identity, have historically been very important on the battlefield. You can find many stories of troops rallying around their banner or flag in battle, and the heroism of flag bearers getting killed in battle while holding up their respective unit or national symbols. (And someone else then taking up the flag to keep it from falling.) Have you ever seen the Iwo Jima memorial? It's a statue of US Marines hoisting a flag. Even the Roman Empire had insignias for each legion, called "Aquila" because it was an abstract symbolic eagle. If one of these Aquila was lost in battle, the Romans would go to considerable trouble to recover them. Sometimes they would spend years trying to get them back. Since warfare has changed so dramatically in the last century or so, and it is now so dangerous to mass troops together in one place, this aspect of war has been nearly forgotten. Tolkien himself was likely trained to stick close to the unit banner in his WW I experience. The need for troops to stay spread out or hidden would only be understood later.

Incidentally, Eomer's sword-tossing and singing is a very specific historical reference. There is a legend about the Battle of Hastings, where William the Conqueror first landed and defeated King Harold in his campaign to claim the English throne. A minstrel on William's side named Taillefer is reported to have sang and juggled his sword in defiance of the English before charging into their ranks and being overwhelmed.

The story of Taillefer is told by Geoffrey Gaimar, Henry of Huntingdon, William of Malmesbury and in the Carmen de Hastingae Proelio. The accounts differ, some mentioning only the juggling, some only the song, but have elements in common. The story was the subject of an 1816 ballad by the German poet Ludwig Uhland, set to music for soprano, tenor, baritone, eight-part chorus and orchestra by Richard Strauss in 1903, Op. 52, named after the protagonist Taillefer. The work received a rare performance on 13 September 2014 at the Last Night of the Proms.
 
Tolkien is merely following long-established custom. Banners and flags, or other symbols of group identity, have historically been very important on the battlefield. You can find many stories of troops rallying around their banner or flag in battle, and the heroism of flag bearers getting killed in battle while holding up their respective unit or national symbols. (And someone else then taking up the flag to keep it from falling.) Have you ever seen the Iwo Jima memorial? It's a statue of US Marines hoisting a flag. Even the Roman Empire had insignias for each legion, called "Aquila" because it was an abstract symbolic eagle. If one of these Aquila was lost in battle, the Romans would go to considerable trouble to recover them. Sometimes they would spend years trying to get them back. Since warfare has changed so dramatically in the last century or so, and it is now so dangerous to mass troops together in one place, this aspect of war has been nearly forgotten. Tolkien himself was likely trained to stick close to the unit banner in his WW I experience. The need for troops to stay spread out or hidden would only be understood later.

Incidentally, Eomer's sword-tossing and singing is a very specific historical reference. There is a legend about the Battle of Hastings, where William the Conqueror first landed and defeated King Harold in his campaign to claim the English throne. A minstrel on William's side named Taillefer is reported to have sang and juggled his sword in defiance of the English before charging into their ranks and being overwhelmed.
The practice of carrying colours in battle died out in the late 19th and early 20th century. The Brits and Americans seem to have largely ended it after the Boxer-Rebellion. The French after 1914.

Eomer reminds me of Totila, King of the Ostrogoths in Italy, before the battle of Taginae. He rode into the space between the Gothic and Roman armies and "...sitting upon a very larg horse, began to perform the dance under armsskillfully between the armies. For he wheeled his horse around in a circle and then turned him again to the other side and so made him run round and round. As he rode he hurled his javelin into the air and caught it again as it quivered above him, then passed it rapidly from hand to hand, shifting it with consummate skill, and he gloried in his practice of the art, falling back on his shoulders, spreading his legs and leaning from side to side,..." "The Wars of Justinian, 8.2919-20" by Prokopios of Caesarea, trans. by Dewing and Kaldellis.
 
I find this all highly interesting and it even reinforces my conviction that: there is at least an implied connection between the Eärendil Poem and the unfurling of Arwen's Banner, when the ships arrive in Harlond.
 
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