Ring of Barahir

I'd somehow prefer to have the ring accompany some important messenger for example...
Or be part of a marriage trade.
 
Haerangil said:
I'd somehow prefer to have the ring accompany some important messenger for example...
Or be part of a marriage trade.
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Is she marrying so much "outside" that that would be necessary?
And what important messenge would you have in her time? No real trouble yet?

Her husband was called Elatan - which does suggest some closeness to elves and he might be interested in an originally elvish ring - but we do know nothing more about him beyond being a nobleman from Andúnië?
 
Haerangil said:
He's starman!
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Rather than being an 80s movie reference, I believe his name was meant to be rendered elf-man, not unlike Elrond’s son Eladan. It seems fitting for a man from whom the elf-friends of Numenor would later take as the father of their first hereditary lord.

And as to what we know about him, very little is attested in any of the texts and not ugh more can be guessed with confidence. He appears to have been a leader among the folk of Andunie, who themselves were largely of Beorian descent. His son was the first Lord of Andunie so he himself was not. That position appears to have been created by the king (Tar-Elendil) for his non-royal grandson Valandil, possibly as consolation for being unable to directly inherit a path to the kingship.
 
Not necessarily, the Star is still a numenorean symbol, the island has the form of a five-fold star.

I could see "star-man".But maybe he was a very elf-like person ...
 
Haerangil said:
Not necessarily, the Star is still a numenorean symbol, the island has the form of a five-fold star.

I could see "star-man".But maybe he was a very elf-like person ...
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If he demanded the Ring of Barahir as dowry it should have meant something to him.
 
Haerangil said:
Not necessarily, the Star is still a numenorean symbol, the island has the form of a five-fold star.

I could see "star-man".But maybe he was a very elf-like person ...
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These are very valid points. If we wanted we could fold both meanings into his character as we develop it. That seems like a very Tolkienian approach.
As the representative of the folks who removed themselves from the Armenelos/Romenna area we could explore in him they reasons why they moved west. Possibly a minor cultural break with the emerging royal line of Elros, or perhaps they still king for the Light in the West, or other reasons. He could be our window into that culture and decision.
 
Arnorion said:
These are very valid points. If we wanted we could fold both meanings into his character as we develop it. That seems like a very Tolkienian approach.
As the representative of the folks who removed themselves from the Armenelos/Romenna area we could explore in him they reasons why they moved west. Possibly a minor cultural break with the emerging royal line of Elros, or perhaps they still king for the Light in the West, or other reasons. He could be our window into that culture and decision.
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And exactly how has the king's daughter got to know him? Maybe a dynastic arrangement to bind a potentially separationist movement back to the thone?
 
Could he have been a man of somewhat lower descend so the King created a position for his son to rise up in nobility to make his marriage to a woman from the royal family easier or more acceptable?
 
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Haerangil said:
Could he have been a man of somewhat lower descend so the King created a position fir his son to rise up in nobility to make his marriage to a woman from the royal family easier or more acceptable?
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Has she been "parked" - married down enough so that her potential son would not qualify to challenge his uncle and later his cousin?
It was a thing to forbid king's daughters to marry, to "park" them in temples and monasteries (and get them randomly out sometimes - once a suitable alliance appeared) or to give them off in some kind of "left-handed-marriages".
 
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Interesting idea. Now, as far as we know the Numenoreans had no convents or monasteries... or could they?
Maybe not quite nuns but monastics of groups very dedicated to a specific Vala?

Afaik Smith-pupils of Aule were Artanor or Aulendili, Mariners Uinendili, virgins asssiating in lembasmaking Yavannildi... now all of these, except the Uinendili, are 1st elves and 2nd nothing like convents but still...

Could a form of sisterhood of , say Este or Nienna, be thinkable? These then would be professional healers or mourners i assume.Or Varda, starseers maybe?
 
Haerangil said:
Interesting idea. Now, as far as we know the Numenoreans had no convents or monasteries... or could they?
Maybe not quite nuns but monastics of groups very dedicated to a specific Vala?

Afaik Smith-pupils of Aule were Artanor or Aulendili, Mariners Uinendili, virgins asssiating in lembasmaking Yavannildi... now all of these, except the Uinendili, are 1st elves and 2nd nothing like convents but still...

Could a form of sisterhood of , say Este or Nienna, be thinkable? These then would be professional healers or mourners i assume.Or Varda, starseers maybe?
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Akin to Vestal Virgins? I could imagine something like that.

We have a legend here in that in South of the country in the pagn times each year a girl was dedicated to guard a sacred fire placed on a slope next to a sacred sping for the whole duration of year and then next spring equinox she would go down into the villages and chase around and seek her replacement by marking the face of first young girl she could catch by marking her cheeks with the sooth from the sacred fire that was on her dirty hands. So such kind of temporary dedications I could imagine.
 
Yes, like temporary vestals, say living at a tower, on an island ,or in a grove, maybe for education, depending on the nature of the angel they dedicate a period of time to. Seems like a good parking lot for noble ladies.
 
Haerangil said:
Yes, like temporary vestals, say living at a tower, on an island ,or in a grove, maybe for education, depending on the nature of the angel they dedicate a period of time to. Seems like a good parking lot for noble ladies.
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And on her way back or something she just "happens to meet" the misterious stranger from Andunie... Which her mother actually artfully set up... ;)
 
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This conversation took an interesting and unexpected turn. It is certainly possible that Tar-Elendil married her off in that way to rid his son's children of challengers in future generations, but I never read it that way. At the time of princess Silmarien's marriage there was no hint of the in-fighting and throne grabbing that appears later in the Tale of Aldarion and Erendis where their estranged daughter vies with her male cousins to maintain the throne. We could go there but I think it is too soon in the life of Numenor for that.

I've always imagined that Tar-Elendil, being the fourth king several centuries in, would have begun formalizing the kingdom. After generations of war in Beleriand the population would be rising and since her birth was in SA 521 no ships would have made the voyage back to Middle-earth yet so I see no real tension there. The place was poor in natural resources (all metal was at that time precious) but enriched with gifts from their friends the Eldar of Tol Eressea. If groups of citizens had begun moving away from the initial colony on the east of the isle, then the king might have felt the need to establish local governors for these new population centers. Her going forth from Armenelos then might be her own call to adventure.

I imagine that the king would have created lordships in each of the new regions (Andunie in Andustar, Ondosto in Forostar, and presumably other new settlements in Hyarnustar and Hyarrostar which later became centers of agriculture and forestry). Establishing a formal government for the people who were branching out to cover the island seems sensible. Moreover, there will eventually be a formal Council of the Scepter advising the king so it would help if we set that up. Isilme, the second child of Tar-Elendil was passed over for the crown as well and though she only appears on a genealogical table she might have been married to the leader of Ondosto in a similar fashion. Perhaps the Bow of Brego was the bride price to the lord of that mountainous region.

I hope that there was genuine affection in these matches and not just political expediency. I'd hate to think that the first "Elendil" of Numenor was a jerk.
 
Haerangil said:
Could he have been a man of somewhat lower descend so the King created a position for his son to rise up in nobility to make his marriage to a woman from the royal family easier or more acceptable?
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I do believe that the official Lordship of Andunie was created as a sort of consolation prize for what would have been the king's first grandson (Valandil).
 
I agree that seems to be how Dúnadan societies work. There's a King who rules with a crown council consisting of local Lords, but it seems not very centralized, the local liege-lords of the Provinces owe the King allegiance and are members of the council but rule as benign herital overseers over a loyal regional populance while the King rules his kingslands, like Arandor on Numenor or Anórien in Gondor like a local lotd on his own. I do not know where these structures come from, in Gondor i'd suggest Elendil made his most loyal generals local Lords and integrated older faithful colonies and tribal lands.

In Numenor i am not so sure... the people who came to Numenor were survivors and refugees from Balar and Sirion... what may have been their forms of organisation they built upon? The traditional three Houses of the Edain? Most likely only remnants of two of these were left at the time...
 
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