S03E01 Script Discussion

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The Super Secret Necromantic Orc Project has been Mairon (Sauron)'s brainchild during Season 2. He has certainly...done things...to the captive elves, but it's more along the lines of brainwashing and soul manipulation. They still more-or-less look like elves (fallen/broken elves, but still elves). It is only on Morgoth's return that the final step makes them orcs. Partly this is to show the radically different goals of Morgoth and Sauron. And partly this is to show that the crime of making the orcs is mostly on Morgoth's head. And partly it's to keep the process mysterious. What is done for that final step is not shown or alluded to, so all we know is that there are suddenly Orcs in Season 3.

I agree that a volcanic eruption should be part of making Thangorodrim. The problem with Valar is that differentiating between a construction project and a natural disaster isn't really all that clear ;). So long as whatever is on screen counts as a spectacle in the end.

It's true that Rúmil could be part of Finarfin's host. But in the end, we lacked named characters who refused to go with Fëanor. 10% of the Noldor stay behind, and at least some of them should have a voice. We have some of the wives refusing to go; Rúmil is a unique voice. We'd showed Rúmil having a bit of rivalry with Fëanor in his teen years, so this seemed the right time to have a final interaction between the two of them. If we did not want to use him here, we could use Mahtan, Nerdanel's father, who would refuse to go because of his devotion to Aulë - and he could express regret over ever teaching his son-in-law anything.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Mahtan should totally express regret over teaching Feanor. But I'm OK with what you do with Rumil here. It's still possible for him to record the events as Finarfin tells them to him.

The Orcs I'm still confused about. There isn't enough time between this episode and the attacks on the Sindar, for a new generation of "uglified" Orcs to be born and raised. They can be less evil, and still be hideously ugly, because being totally brainswashed into sadistic vicious evil is a behavior, and is partly caused by Morgoth driving them with his will to hate and destroy (as Sauron will do in later Ages). They aren't an army yet (if I'm understanding the intent), they're downtrodden, abused, brainwashed slaves/worshippers whose own moral fabric has been extremely corrupted. I.e., they are not kind to their children. They need not yet be totally full of hate and fury, nor trained as soldiers.

But uglification is a thing you're born with... or not. Morgoth isn't going to cast an uglification spell on them. It's got to be a thing Sauron bred into them -- either on purpose to defile Eru's creation, or as a side of worshiping Morgoth, necromantic experiments, and possibly breeding with demons (although if Boldog is only introduced now, then that last part may not have happened yet.)

They'd still be elf-sized, as we discussed in connection with the Lay of Leithian in the Orcs thread. But they should be ugly, with horrible voices. (I don't think the original generation of captives are still alive, and all later orcs are explicitly short-lived, even compared to Mortals. I think these must be descended from their children, who were taken from them at birth and raised (dehumanized, brutalized, experimented upon) by demons.
 
Last edited:

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
So, they aren’t an army of orcs yet? So there won’t be orcs attacking Doriath or the Laiquendi? I’m confused... I would think that the orc project was already far advanced by the time Morgoth returned.
So, I don't disagree. This problem arises from earlier decisions about season structure. Season 2 is structured a bit oddly, with the first half taking place in Middle Earth, focussing primarily on the Noldor and Teleri migrants. The second half abandons the Teleri left behind in Middle Earth and shifts to focus on the Noldor in Valinor.

This is still workable if you do as Tolkien did, and go back in time to explain what was happening in Middle Earth. The issue there is that we (the audience) just spent an entire season with the Noldor characters, and want to know what happened to them. The early Beleriand material is not nearly as dramatic. So the hosts decided instead to do the Flight of the Noldor and Of the Sindar in the same season. This wreaks a lot of havoc with the timeline, the building of the Orc army, and the excavation of Menegroth being the most egregious examples.

Unfortunately, there is almost no avoiding this without a rewrite of Season 2.

My intention is to be more proactive about these issues in the future, and to try and head them off before it is even discussed by the hosts.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
If the Orcs start out looking Elf-like when they first attack Beleriand (which has textual support) then I think there should not be an instantaneous magical transformation from looking like tortured Elves to looking like LotR-era Orcs. That's too hokey and will be inexplicable. The hideous appearance should be bred into them over the next several generations, during the earlier part of the Siege of Angband. As late as the Quest of the Silmaril, they were still the same size as Elves.

Generations among Orcs are short. Tolkien wrote they are shorter-lived than Humans, and there are now Boldog-style demons actually breeding with them. So it won't take more than a century or two. But it shouldn't happen literally overnight.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Nick, the compressed timeline is not to blame for the orcs.

We show the Angband storyline throughout Season 2, so it is not as abandoned as the Sindar.

We decided that the orcs would not be created until after the return of Morgoth because they are *his*. And so, he can not influence them until his return to Angband after the Darkening of Valinor. We could have had orcs at any time. ..if we were willing to let Sauron make them. We were not willing to give that part of Morgoth's story to Sauron, and there was no time for him to make orcs before his captivity.

So we get Boldog now.

There is no reason we can't make the transformation gradual over several generations, but the first generation is noticeably orcs, not just broken elves, due to Morgoth's direct influence. An infusion of Valar-strength power. This isn't just a breeding project. There is magic involved.

Morgoth infuses them with his hate. He takes his anger out on them. And...they don't die. He fundamentally destroys them.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I'm a bit confused.

I agree that Morgoth likely doesn't fill them with hatred before now. But didn't Morgoth capture Elves at Kuivienen, and do horrible things to them? I thought that right there was the origin of Orcs.

Tolkien actually wrote that Melkor only thought about ruining them to offend and blaspheme Eru, and that making them into an army was mostly Sauron's work during Melkor's imprisonment. Granted, I think that's in the Myths Transformed series.

And.. what is the SSNOP about if it isn't Sauron's Orc-breeding experiments? Aren't they already different from Elves before Morgoth returns? I thought we were talking about Orcs (or proto-Orcs) that still look mostly (but not entirely) elf-like, not genuine Elves. From Tolkien's discussions of what happened when Mortals fell due to worshipping Morgoth, and what happened to the Orcs themselves, any Elves who worshipped Morgoth would instantly become short-lived, and subject to disease (but not instantly ugly). They would fundamentally not be Elves anymore.

I do think there's a question of what it means to be an Orc -- is it simply inborn, or is it more determined by that infusion of hate, and completely evil culture? In that case the pre-Boldog creatures might not truly be Orcs yet... but they would not be Elves either.
 
Last edited:

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The Valar attack on Utumno happens practically on the heels of Melkor discovering that the Children of Iluvatar have awakened. It is Mairon who reveals their location to him, and hence gets himself in charge of the project. So, yes, he's taken some captive, but has made no progress on the project at all before he is taken in chains to Valinor.

It *is* Sauron's idea to make an army out of them, and he does focus on breaking their wills and breeding them. But his focus is on cultivating loyalty to Melkor. They are...fallen elves, proto-orcs, whatever you want to call them by the time Morgoth comes back and checks in on the project. We do show some horrible things happening to the elf captives during Season 2. But it's mostly implied torture; this show isn't rated R.

Morgoth then decides to take it in slightly different direction, with more ingrained hatred and wanton love of destruction. He takes the project away from Sauron and gives it to Boldog.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Since we are in need of making some revisions to the early outlines before the season ends, this is my attempt/draft of a proposal for Ep 1. Words I suggest adding are in purple. Words I suggest deleting are crossed out red.

Oh, I agree that we raise the succession question right away. But I feel like what they were asking for was for everyone to be worried about 'What will Fëanor do?' and no one had figured out that it would be rebellion and return to Middle Earth, until Fëanor came back and started saying so publicly. We have conversations with Galadriel and Turgon earlier than this which make it sound like a foregone conclusion that Fëanor (and some of the Ñoldor) want to leave Valinor. So, it's maybe less of a shock/shift than they were looking for...more like a gradual and inevitable progression. The way we have it, the audience may be wondering why the other characters have given up/resigned themselves before Fëanor even does anything. And while Fëanor may have energy and drive, what he's saying isn't going to be shocking or new (well, maybe the Oath, but that isn't what sways the crowd).
I tried to make suggestions surrounding this, but I’m not sure if I did it well. I haven’t read the Season 2 outlines, I only know that in the book he does speak of both rebellion and returning to Middle-earth from out of "thralldom", shortly before he threatens Fingolfin's life.


Season 3 Episode 1: The Rebellion of the Ñoldor
Protagonist: Fëanor
First appearances: Boldog, Halbarad, Hamilcar
Final appearances: Indis, Nerdanel, Findis, Rúmil?
Characters:
Melkor, Mairon, Gothmog, Boldog, Indis, Findis, Irimë, Fingolfin, Finarfin, Fëanor, Nerdanel, Sons of Fëanor, Eärwen, Galadriel, Sons of Finarfin, Fingon, Turgon,
(Frame: Elrond, Estel, Gilraen, Halbarad, Hamilcar)

Summary: In the wake of Finwë’s murder, the Ñoldor decide to seek vengeance. Melkor openly declares himself to be king in Middle-earth.
Theme: The importance of oaths and treating one’s word as one’s bond.


Frame Teaser – Teenage Estel sits waiting by the gate of Rivendell. Halbarad and his son Hamilcar arrive. As Estel leads them to the main house, he speaks briefly with Hamilcar. The two are in stark contrast to each other - Estel dressed as the elves of Rivendell, and Hamilcar a bit more ragged and travel-stained. Estel is shorter and younger (about 16). There is some mutual distaste/scorn expressed (out of Halbarad’s earshot), but when Elrond greets his guests, he invites both Halbarad and his son to join him in a conference...while shutting Estel out.

[Does Rivendel have a gate at all?]


Act I
Scene 1. Frame: House of Elrond - Gilraen meets with Elrond. She is happy about the visit from the Dunedain, and wonders aloud if maybe it will soon be time for Estel to spend more time with his own people? Elrond cautions her not yet – that unfortunately he has some bad news. It seems that Sauron has returned to Mordor, and so it would be better for Estel to remain in Rivendell for now. Gilraen agrees, obviously shaken by this news. Estel has overheard this conversation.

Scene 2. Meanwhile, in Angband - Mairon has been summoned to Melkor’s throne room in the pit of Angband. When he enters, Gothmog is standing next to the throne. Melkor asks about the project he entrusted to Mairon before he left, and Mairon is quite happy to show off the results of his experiments on the captive (former) Elves. The fallen ex-Elves look unhealthy, withered and downtrodden, and a bit ugly. a little withered and worse for wear, and They flat-out worship Melkor as a God. Melkor seems... less than impressed with these results. This isn’t quite what he had in mind. What use will these fawning creatures be for fielding an army to demonstrate his might? Gothmog takes the opportunity to make a scathing remark about Sauron’s (sic) efforts. Melkor removes Mairon from control of the orc project.

Scene 3. Valinor - The Ñoldor escort the body of Finwë from Formenos to Lórien by lamplight in darkened Valinor, with the stars overhead. Finarfin pulls his brother Fingolfin aside to discuss his urgent concerns over the current situation. Fëanor has already taken charge over what to do with Finwë’s body, and in Finarfin’s opinion, the Ñoldor can’t really afford any more of his leadership. Also, Finarfin reminds [the audience] that Fëanor’s ban from Tirion has not yet been lifted – while he has been pardoned, the time on his exile is not complete. Fingolfin doesn’t disagree, exactly, but asks something along the lines of “What would you have me do – go back on my word?” He considers himself bound by his words at the foot of Manwë’s throne.

Scene 4. Lórien - Finwë’s body, heavily draped in fabric, is laid down on an empty bench next to Míriel’s apparently sleeping form. Irimë weeps openly over her father’s body. Indis looks at Míriel, and then approaches Fëanor in a last attempt to reach out to him and heal the divisions in their family. She acknowledges that his father loved him dearly and that it is right for Finwë to be placed next to Míriel, as they are now together in the Halls of Mandos. She is gracious and queenly, and shares his grief, but he is completely gutted – blank and closed off; he does not respond to her or even acknowledge that he has heard her. Fëanor leaves alone.


Act II
Scene 5.
Nerdanel is walking through a quarry in the starlight. She comes across Fëanor here; it is the place where they first met. It is unclear which one of them was looking for the other – an ‘of course you would be here’ comment between them.
  • Fëanor’s silent shock has worn off. He is quiet, and vulnerable – we see his grief now, as an orphan who has lost his parents. Nerdanel offers him comfort; she too is grieving for Finwë.
  • But his anger isn’t far behind, and he insists that Melkor must pay for what he has done. Nerdanel agrees, and says that there is no way the Valar will let Melkor get away with this. At the mention of the Valar, Fëanor’s anger erupts, and he explains rants how all of this is the Valar’s fault, and Melkor is one of them, and they are complicit, and he will not live under their rule any longer... and that Melkor is not worthy of that name and he never wants to hear it again.
  • Nerdanel is angry, but cooler. She refuses to join him in his rebellion. He accuses her of betraying him during his darkest hour. She defends her position, saying that he is the one who is betraying his people.
  • [Nerdanel knows she has lost him, so argues instead for her sons?]
Scene 6. Fëanor’s sons lead the army of Formenos, which encamps outside the walls of Tirion. They are not permitted to enter the city, and are not happy about it, but Fingolfin’s guards insist it is necessary to keep the peace. Maglor stresses that this situation is temporary and should not be taken as a slight. Maedhros insists that Fëanor will take care of his half-brother, who has attempted to usurp their father’s rightful place. Nerdanel returns to the camp outside Tirion.

Scene 7. Tirion - Finarfin speaks privately with his family to express his fears – he does not know how to prevent the impending disaster. Galadriel expresses her vocal desire to visit Middle-earth. Finrod scoffs points out that this was an idea Fëanor started, with his talk of Valinor as a cage – since when is she a fan of Fëanor? Galadriel retorts that she is not, but she has been dreaming of exotic lands for a long time – can Finrod deny that he has dreamed that, too? Finrod says nothing, but looks thoughtful. Finarfin speaks of the dangers of making important decisions when upset or hurt. He also speaks of his sense of duty towards his people and what leadership entails. Eärwen expresses love of Valinor Aman.

Scene 8a. Olwë, King of the Teleri in Alqualondë, sends messengers with condolences for the death of Finwë to Fingolfin in Tirion. Fingolfin discusses the current situation with his sons Fingon and Turgon. None of them trust Fëanor, and the question now is what he will do. Fingolfin expresses his wish to take revenge upon Melkor. Turgon wonders when the Valar will act – he seems to expect they will do something. Fingon is happy to leave Valinor, so he does not feel the need to argue much. Turgon is very opposed to the idea because of his love of Tirion. His father points out that they could build Tirion anew in Middle Earth. Turgon retorts that they could not just... not leave the one they have already built. There is more to Valinor than just the Trees.

Scene 8b. Fëanor returns to Tirion and enters the city. Most of the people greet him gladly, though there is some uneasiness. People are surprised at his return, against the ban. There is some unease, but also much excitement.


Act III
Scene 9.
Tirion - Finarfin tries to catch up with Fëanor and urge patience – Can he delay before doing something rash and public? Talk things through first? Fëanor has no patience and no interest. Fëanor dismisses him – “If you don’t want to be part of this, then don’t.” Finarfin snaps back that he won’t abandon their people, either.

Scene 10. Tirion - Indis says goodbye to her children (Fingolfin, Findis, Finarfin and Irimë) because she is returning to the Vanyar in the wake of her husband’s death. Findis agrees to go with her; Irimë chooses to stay with her brothers. Before she leaves, Indis tells Fingolfin about the imminent fire, destruction and bloodshed that Míriel foretold. They both express being trapped by the promises they’ve made – these outcomes are unavoidable.

Scene 11. Tirion - Nerdanel, meanwhile, is pleading with her sons to give some thought to their father’s plan and not just blindly jump in to follow him. Fëanor’s sons insist that Nerdanel will inevitably come around to Fëanor’s point of view; she always does. At this point, she despairs of reaching her sons – she has already lost them. [At this point, the audience doesn’t know for sure what Fëanor’s plan is, but it’s clear that Nerdanel is upset and worried.]

Scene 12. Meanwhile in Angband – Melkor raises the volcanic peaks of Thangorodrim in a show of power and defiance – part colossal volcanic eruption, part heaping the slag and earth-vomit from new mines and tunnels on top. The Balrogs are involved in their construction, somewhat reminiscent of the Lamps. Melkor informs Mairon that the time for secrecy is over. Mairon tries to get himself put in charge of that project, but Melkor says something cryptic about his talents being needed elsewhere.


Act IV
Scene 13.
Tirion - The Ñoldor gather in the torch-lit main square beneath the Mindon Eldaliéva in Tirion. More of the soldiers of Formenos have entered the city, carrying torches. The somber, mourning mood has changed to one of anticipation. Fëanor does most of the talking. He names Melkor Morgoth. The destruction of the Trees make staying in Valinor pointless – he calls it a cage. He blames the Valar for the death of their King and wildly tells the Ñoldor they must get revenge and regain the Silmarils. He paints pictures of the great kingdoms they will rule in Middle-earth, once they have destroyed Morgoth and taken back the Jewels. He mentions that the younger race will must not be allowed to usurp their place in Middle-earth. And he publicly reminds Fingolfin of his earlier pledge of loyalty.

Scene 14. Rúmil takes his parting shot at Fëanor. Galadriel finds herself in the awkward position of defending Fëanor’s call to have kingdoms in Middle-earth in spite of her personal opinion of him – we will go with you, but we will never follow you. [Aredhel silently agrees with Galadriel.] Irimë reminds them of their obligation to get retribution for the death of their King (she speaks passionately from anger and grief). Fingolfin disagrees with Fëanor’s words against the Valar, but declares that he too seeks revenge against his father’s murderer. Turgon speaks of the beauty of Valinor and Tirion without gainsaying his father, which helps reinforce the voice of those who are calling to wait and proceed with caution. [Finrod silently agrees with Turgon; Fingon agrees with Fingolfin, perhaps vocally.]

Scene 15a. The Oath of Fëanor. Fëanor recites the Oath alone. [Glimpses of Manwë, Varda, and Taniquetal when Fëanor names them.] His sons jump up from their places in the crowd and draw their swords, and thoughtlessly repeat the words after their father has finished (replacing “I” with “we”) joining Fëanor in saying “So swear we all!”. Nerdanel leaves the square in grief. [Celebrimbor stands with the Fëanoreans, but does not take the Oath.] While some of the listeners are shocked [particularly Mahtan], after the next voice calling for a pause, the crowd makes it clear that they are impatient to leave.

Scene 15b. The final farewell between Fëanor and Nerdanel. She pleads with him not to take her sons from her – at least not to take the twins [foreboding Amrod’s death]. He retorts that she should just come with them, and then she can keep all of her children. [Lines slightly modified from the Shibboleth: ]
Fëanor: “Were you a true wife, as you had been till cozened by Aulë, you would keep all of them, for you would come with us. If you desert me, you desert also all of our children. For they are determined to go with their father.”
Nerdanel: (angry) “You will not keep all of them. One at least will never dwell in Middle-earth.”
Fëanor: “Take your evil omens to the Valar who will delight in them. I defy them.”


[I'm not sure this conversation belongs here -- after they take the Oath, shouldn't she know it's too late? Perhaps move this conversation to after Scene 11? Granted that would undermine the surprise somewhat, but this draft doesn't entirely eliminate the anticipation.]

Scene 16. Meanwhile in Angband – In the pits of Angband, Melkor informs Mairon that he has someone else to lead the orc project. Introducing... Boldog! Boldog is a proto-orc, a Maia loyal to Melkor. He is clearly more of a warrior than the fallen ex-Elves. Mairon’s ‘lab assistant’ fallen elf comments on how hideous Boldog is, and Boldog kills him. Melkor orders Mairon to undertake a mission outside Angband – the details are not overheard.


Frame Tag - Estel sneaks out of Rivendell at night, disobeying his guardian. He brings some supplies; evidently he intends to be gone awhile.
 
Last edited:

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Okay, I am currently re-listening to the original Session 3-4 podcast, so I figured that was a good time to finalize this and address points you've made. Also, a reminder to show Morgoth investing his own power into his projects throughout this season -- hints of that should fit into these script outlines. Also, Dave here suggested that one of the balrogs could be killed by one of the villains (something we had not suggested in the balrog thread). While I wouldn't want orcs (of any sort or combination) to kill a balrog, a dragon would certainly be a candidate to do so. And that would make the point that Morgoth has made something new and powerful. An issue for Season 4, but something we shouldn't forget about. Also need to make sure the '...and yet remain evil,' conversation happens at the right point in these script outlines.


Okay, back to Season 3 Episode 1:

Yes, Rivendell has a gate. It appears in Season 1 Episode 1 (our pilot). So the set is already built, if you will ;). But to answer the underlying question, keep in mind that the approach of the dwarves to Rivendell is round-about and not through the main entrance. Frodo was passed out when he was carried from the Ford to the main house, so he missed it ;).

Also, please do not add the tilde to 'Noldor'. We're using published Silmarillion spelling on this project for consistency (when available). Obviously, you may do as you like in your own posts, but I just wanted to give you the heads up that I'm going to remove that from the script outlines.

Why have you swapped out Valinor for Aman? Aman = the continent, Valinor = lands of the Valar, including Eldamar (where the elves live). When speaking of an area they are familiar with, it would make sense for them to say 'Valinor'...right? I was confused why this change was suggested.

I agree that the final conversation between Nerdanel and Fëanor seems rather late, but we want it to feel inevitably futile here. The chasm between them is very clear. I'm okay with leaving it here at the end, and then moving it if it's disapproved of. I didn't feel the need to include actual dialogue in the outline, but yes, this is a reference to that conversation in the Shibboleth.

Other than that, I think your additions and corrections were good, with the exception of Fingolfin's view during the debate in the square


Season 3 Episode 1: The Rebellion of the Noldor
Protagonist: Fëanor
First appearances: Boldog, Halbarad, Hamilcar
Final appearances: Indis, Nerdanel, Findis, Rúmil, Mahtan
Characters:
Melkor, Mairon, Gothmog, Boldog, Indis, Findis, Irimë, Fingolfin, Finarfin, Fëanor, Nerdanel, Sons of Fëanor, Eärwen, Galadriel, Sons of Finarfin, Fingon, Turgon,
(Frame: Elrond, Estel, Gilraen, Halbarad, Hamilcar)

Summary: In the wake of Finwë’s murder, the Noldor decide to seek vengeance. Melkor openly declares himself to be king in Middle-earth.
Theme: The importance of oaths and treating one’s word as one’s bond.
Conflict: Fëanor must get the Noldor, who do not all agree with him or trust his leadership, to agree to join his rebellion and leave Valinor.

Frame Teaser – Teenage Estel sits waiting by the gate of Rivendell. Halbarad and his son Hamilcar arrive. As Estel leads them to the main house, he speaks briefly with Hamilcar. The two are in stark contrast to each other - Estel dressed as the elves of Rivendell, and Hamilcar a bit more ragged and travel-stained. Estel is shorter and younger (about 16). There is some mutual distaste/scorn expressed (out of Halbarad’s earshot), but when Elrond greets his guests, he invites both Halbarad and his son to join him in a conference...while shutting Estel out.


Act I
Scene 1. Frame: House of Elrond - Gilraen meets with Elrond. She is happy about the visit from the Dunedain, and wonders aloud if maybe it will soon be time for Estel to spend more time with his own people? Elrond cautions her not yet – that unfortunately he has some bad news. It seems that Sauron has returned to Mordor, and so it would be better for Estel to remain in Rivendell for now. Gilraen agrees, obviously shaken by this news. Estel has overheard this conversation.

Scene 2. Meanwhile, in Angband - Mairon has been summoned to Melkor’s throne room in the pit of Angband. When he enters, Gothmog is standing next to the throne. Melkor asks about the project he entrusted to Mairon before he left, and Mairon is quite happy to show off the results of his experiments on the captive (former) Elves. The fallen Elves look unhealthy, withered and downtrodden, and a bit ugly. They worship Melkor as their God. Melkor seems... less than impressed with these results. This isn’t quite what he had in mind. What use will these fawning creatures be for fielding an army to demonstrate his might? Gothmog takes the opportunity to make a scathing remark about Sauron’s (sic) efforts. Melkor removes Mairon from control of the orc project.

Scene 3. Valinor - The Noldor escort the body of Finwë from Formenos to Lórien by lamplight in darkened Valinor, with the stars overhead. Finarfin pulls his brother Fingolfin aside to discuss his urgent concerns over the current situation. Fëanor has already taken charge over what to do with Finwë’s body, and in Finarfin’s opinion, the Noldor can’t really afford any more of his leadership. Also, Finarfin reminds [the audience] that Fëanor’s ban from Tirion has not yet been lifted – while he has been pardoned, the time on his exile is not complete. Fingolfin doesn’t disagree, exactly, but asks something along the lines of “What would you have me do – go back on my word?” He considers himself bound by his words at the foot of Manwë’s throne.

Scene 4. Lórien - Finwë’s body, heavily draped in fabric, is laid down on an empty bench next to Míriel’s apparently sleeping form. Only Indis and Finwë's children (and wives) are present. Irimë weeps openly over her father’s body. Indis looks at Míriel, and then approaches Fëanor in a last attempt to reach out to him and heal the divisions in their family. She acknowledges that his father loved him dearly and that it is right for Finwë to be placed next to Míriel, as they are now together in the Halls of Mandos. She is gracious and queenly, and shares his grief, but he is completely gutted – blank and closed off; he does not respond to her or even acknowledge that he has heard her. Fëanor leaves alone.


Act II
Scene 5.
Quarry - Nerdanel is walking through a quarry in the starlight. She comes across Fëanor here; it is the place where they first met. It is unclear which one of them was looking for the other – an ‘of course you would be here’ comment between them.
  • Fëanor’s silent shock has worn off. He is quiet, and vulnerable – we see his grief now, as an orphan who has lost his parents. Nerdanel offers him comfort; she too is grieving for Finwë.
  • But his anger isn’t far behind, and he insists that Melkor must pay for what he has done. Nerdanel agrees, and says that there is no way the Valar will let Melkor get away with this. At the mention of the Valar, Fëanor’s anger erupts, and he rants about how all of this is the Valar’s fault, and Melkor is one of them, and they are complicit, and he will not live under their rule any longer... and that Melkor is not worthy of that name and he never wants to hear it again.
  • Nerdanel is angry, but cooler. She refuses to join him in his rebellion. He accuses her of betraying him during his darkest hour. She defends her position, saying that he is the one who is betraying his people.
Scene 6. Outside Tirion's walls - Fëanor’s sons lead the army of Formenos, which encamps outside the walls of Tirion. They are not permitted to enter the city, and are not happy about it, but Fingolfin’s guards insist it is necessary to keep the peace. Maglor stresses that this situation is temporary and should not be taken as a slight. Maedhros insists that Fëanor will take care of his half-brother, who has attempted to usurp their father’s rightful place. Nerdanel returns to the camp outside Tirion.

Scene 7. Tirion - Finarfin speaks privately with his family to express his fears – he does not know how to prevent the impending disaster. Galadriel expresses her vocal desire to visit Middle-earth. Finrod points out that this was an idea Fëanor started, with his talk of Valinor as a cage – since when is she a fan of Fëanor? Galadriel retorts that she is not, but she has been dreaming of exotic lands for a long time – can Finrod deny that he has dreamed that, too? Finrod says nothing, but looks thoughtful. Finarfin speaks of the dangers of making important decisions when upset or hurt. He also speaks of his sense of duty towards his people and what leadership entails. Eärwen expresses love of the Blessed Realm.

Scene 8a. Tirion, Throne Room - Olwë, King of the Teleri in Alqualondë, sends messengers with condolences for the death of Finwë to Fingolfin in Tirion. Fingolfin discusses the current situation with his sons Fingon and Turgon. None of them trust Fëanor, and the question now is what he will do. Fingolfin expresses his wish to take revenge upon Melkor. Turgon wonders when the Valar will act – he seems to expect they will do something.

Scene 8b. Tirion, Gate - Fëanor returns to Tirion and enters the city. People are surprised at his return, against the ban. There is some unease, but also much excitement. Mostly, he is greeted gladly.


Act III
Scene 9.
Tirion - Finarfin tries to catch up with Fëanor and urge patience – Can he delay before doing something rash and public? Talk things through first? Fëanor has no patience and no interest. Fëanor dismisses him – “If you don’t want to be part of this, then don’t.” Finarfin snaps back that he won’t abandon their people, either.

Scene 10. Tirion - Indis says goodbye to her children (Fingolfin, Findis, Finarfin and Irimë) because she is returning to the Vanyar in the wake of her husband’s death. Findis agrees to go with her; Irimë chooses to stay with her brothers. Before she leaves, Indis tells Fingolfin about the imminent fire, destruction and bloodshed that Míriel foretold. They both express being trapped by the promises they’ve made – these outcomes are unavoidable.

Scene 11. Tirion - Nerdanel, meanwhile, is pleading with her sons to give some thought to their father’s plan and not just blindly jump in to follow him. Fëanor’s sons insist that Nerdanel will inevitably come around to Fëanor’s point of view; she always does. At this point, she despairs of reaching her sons – she has already lost them to Fëanor's plan.

Scene 12. Meanwhile in Angband – Melkor raises the volcanic peaks of Thangorodrim in a show of power and defiance – part colossal volcanic eruption, part heaping the slag and earth-vomit from new mines and tunnels on top. The Balrogs are involved in their construction, somewhat reminiscent of the Lamps. Melkor informs Mairon that the time for secrecy is over. Mairon tries to get himself put in charge of that project, but Melkor says something cryptic about his talents being needed elsewhere.


Act IV
Scene 13.
Tirion - The Noldor gather in the torch-lit main square beneath the Mindon Eldaliéva. More of the soldiers of Formenos have entered the city, carrying torches. The somber, mourning mood has changed to one of anticipation. Fëanor does most of the talking. He names Melkor Morgoth. The destruction of the Trees make staying in Valinor pointless – he calls it a cage. He blames the Valar for the death of their King and wildly tells the Noldor they must get revenge and regain the Silmarils. He paints pictures of the great kingdoms they will rule in Middle-earth, once they have destroyed Morgoth and taken back the Jewels. He mentions that the younger race must not be allowed to usurp their place in Middle-earth.

Scene 14. Rúmil takes his parting shot at Fëanor. Galadriel finds herself in the awkward position of defending Fëanor’s call to have kingdoms in Middle-earth in spite of her personal opinion of him – we will go with you, but we will never follow you. Aredhel silently agrees with Galadriel. Irimë reminds them of their obligation to get retribution for the death of their King (she speaks passionately from anger and grief). Fingolfin tries to say something cautiously worded about the rebellion being wrong, but Fëanor taunts Fingolfin with his words before the throne, effectively boxing Fingolfin in. Turgon speaks of the beauty of Valinor and Tirion without gainsaying his father, which helps reinforce the voice of those who are calling to wait and proceed with caution. Finrod agrees with Turgon; Fingon agrees with Fingolfin, perhaps vocally.

Scene 15a. The Oath of Fëanor. Fëanor recites the Oath alone. [Glimpses of Manwë, Varda, and Taniquetal when Fëanor names them.] His sons jump up from their places in the crowd and draw their swords, and repeat the words after their father (replacing “I” with “we”) They end by saying “So swear we all!” in unison. Nerdanel leaves the square in grief. Celebrimbor stands with the Fëanoreans, but does not take the Oath. While some of the listeners are shocked [particularly Mahtan and Turgon], after the next voice calling for a pause, the crowd makes it clear that they are impatient to leave.

Scene 15b. The final farewell between Fëanor and Nerdanel. She pleads with him not to take her sons from her – at least not to take the twins. He retorts that she should just come with them, and then she can keep all of her children. The distance between them is already a chasm.

Scene 16. Meanwhile in Angband – In the pits of Angband, Melkor informs Mairon that he has someone else to lead the orc project. Introducing... Boldog! Boldog is a proto-orc, a Maia loyal to Melkor. He is clearly more of a warrior than the fallen Elves. Mairon’s ‘lab assistant’ fallen elf comments on how hideous Boldog is, and Boldog kills him. Melkor orders Mairon to undertake a mission outside Angband – the details are not overheard.


Frame Tag - Estel sneaks out of Rivendell at night, disobeying his guardian. He brings some supplies; evidently he intends to be gone awhile.
 
Last edited:

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
OK, I wasn't aware of such a stricture on diacritics/spelling. That seems unnecessarily strict, but I'll stop using a tilde.

My understanding is that Valinor does not include the shoreline east of the Pelori, and the 1977 Silm glossary seems to say that. So, Alqualonde, Araman, and Avathar are (I think) in Aman but not in Valinor.

I added Fingolfin's view to the torchlit square scene because, to make the dialogue changes you suggested, I had removed his views of leaving Valinor from the earlier conversation with Turgon.
 
Last edited:

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Gotcha. I have been under the impression that Eldamar was part of Valinor, but I admit that Aman geography is not my strong suit. That's why I was confused.

The spelling thing is just a consistency issue.

Ah, I see what you are saying about Fingolfin. We can have him speak in the square, but there are consequences to him voicing any public disagreement with Feanor.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I get that Fingolfin publically disagreeing with Feanor in the square has consequences, but he and Turgon do so in the 1977 Silm, "and fierce words awoke, so that once again wrath came near to the edge of swords." Disagreeing with Feanor isn't the same as declaring himself King. When he said he would follow where Feanor led, he didn't say he would stop having opinions, or agree with everything Feanor says and does (even if Feanor thinks it means that). I don't think it's necessary for Fingolfin to be timid, which is kinda how he seems to me in the wording you used above, and I'm not comfortable with that as a depiction of his character.

Also, your wording appears to show him disagreeing with getting revenge for Finwe, which isn't the part that Fingolfin disagrees with IMO -- he's pro-revenge and pro-leaving. But he's also anti-Oath and pro-Valar -- or tries to be, thinks he can be despite leaving. Where he's boxed in is that if he leaves Valinor with Feanor, that means he is also part of the Rebellion against Manwe's authority... and I think he isn't ready to grapple with that. (Feanor's insistance that while rebelling against Manwe, Fingolfin has to hold to his word before Manwe is... also problematic. They're both being hypocritical about sworn words when it serves their desires.)

I suggest he and Turgon say something opinionated and strong against the Oath or against Feanor's denouncement of the Valar, but when Feanor brings up his word before Manwe and having to follow Feanor wherever he leads, Fingolfin has no response and shuts up, or at most says he didn't swear to agree with everything Feanor says all the time.


also, a reminder to show Morgoth investing his own power into his projects throughout this season -- hints of that should fit into these script outlines.
Have you added it to my versions of the outlines, or will you please in one of them where you think it appropriate? Especially the investing of Orcs with hatred and bloodlust is important and should happen this season, IMO.
 
Last edited:

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
In my understanding Valinor is only the core-land of Aman, whewre Valmar stands and the great Realms of the Valar are, the regions where Elves live are differentiatedv from that... Eldamar is along the coast, where Tirion is, Alqualonde stands... the Vanyar do not live there, the are inj valinor close to taniquetil or even up in the mountain. The Noldor of Formenos live in the fgar north in otherwise unsettled country..
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Okay, got it. So Alqualondë would *not* be considered part of Valinor, definitely, and Tirion would probably not be either...but both would be part of Eldamar, obviously.

The goal (for this episode and the next) is for characters to express a love of home, and sadness at going away from home, probably permanently. I thought it would be odd to refer to an entire continent as 'home,' in a 'farewell to the Western Hemisphere!' kind of way. So while it would be accurate for them to refer to Aman or the Blessed Realm, what they're really talking about is likely Eldamar. We can work out that level of nuance in the scripts, though, when someone actually writes dialogue. I just want to make sure I'm not inaccurate here, so I'll make sure these outlines don't say 'Valinor' when talking about Tirion and Alqualondë (though that mistake very likely appears in the Season 2 outlines; I'll have to go back and check those later).
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
The Super Secret Necromantic Orc Project has been Mairon (Sauron)'s brainchild during Season 2. He has certainly...done things...to the captive elves, but it's more along the lines of brainwashing and soul manipulation. They still more-or-less look like elves (fallen/broken elves, but still elves). It is only on Morgoth's return that the final step makes them orcs. Partly this is to show the radically different goals of Morgoth and Sauron. And partly this is to show that the crime of making the orcs is mostly on Morgoth's head. And partly it's to keep the process mysterious. What is done for that final step is not shown or alluded to, so all we know is that there are suddenly Orcs in Season 3.
Probably not like this, right?

And where do we get the term Orc from in this story? Like, how does Sauron or Morgoth decide on what to call their broken Elves?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
No, not like that. We discussed SSNOP in Season 2, and it's certainly not part of this episode.

The first use of the word 'orc' will likely be in the frame narrative, but as for the origin of the term, I'm not sure if we have a firm decision on that to be shown on screen.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Probably not like this, right?

And where do we get the term Orc from in this story? Like, how does Sauron or Morgoth decide on what to call their broken Elves?
might be the term actually came from the broken elves themselves?
urku/urkō is a primitive Elvish word... they could talk among themsleves and think something "Sauron makes them Urku" and that´s where the word comes from in Melkian and black speech or later in Sindarin as Orch. I mean... that´s one possibility...
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The only one who would make that sort of comment would be Sauron or Morgoth. The elves of Beleriand don't even know that the orcs were once elves or have any connection to elves.

We've been using the term 'orc' in the frame (in Season 2, we show Celebrían's capture and rescue, and in Season 1, we talk about the death of Arathorn)...so the audience should be expecting it. What we haven't done is necessarily determined who is the first person within the story to use that term. It will make sense for it to originate with Angband (whether from the captive broken elves themselves, or from Sauron/Morgoth/Boldog/Gothmog or someone).

So, I would suggest that the elves of Beleriand use some generic term like 'strangers' or 'monsters' until they hear the word 'orc' used by the orcs themselves. But that is, properly speaking, an issue for episodes 3-8. Prior to the introduction of Boldog, they are simply fallen/captive elves.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
umh... the Elves actually captured in Angband would make... guesses.

I was not talking about the Noldor and Sindar here... I meant the Avari!
 
Top