S03E02 Script Discussion

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I don’t know if I can bear to read any more of this project, let alone this thread. I will only make 2 more points.



Galadriel is a talented telepath with “marvellous insight into the minds of others”. She loves the Teleri, especially her mother, and she has distrusted and disliked Fëanor all her life. Indeed she hates the darkness she perceives in him. And she just heard him and his sons swear an Oath that they’re willing to murder anyone, including Elves, to get what they want. She is extremely unlikely to assume a priori that Fëanor is innocent and the Teleri attacked unprovoked. Everything she has believed and felt all her life, and all that she has witnessed in the rebellion, point towards the opposite conclusion. When Fëanor, of all people, is trying to kill her mother it is absurd to claim she instantly sides with Fëanor and helps try to kill Eärwen.


It would be vastly better for her to arrive too late to do anything, with her brothers and father -- or even to show her standing there doing nothing, with the stupidest facial expression you can describe -- than to side with Fëanor and try to slaughter the Teleri, let alone charge up the Arch at her own mother with drawn weapon.

Faelivrin, I would be very sad to see you leave this project. I think that you have brought a great deal of insight to this.

I hope that I can help mitigate some of the fears you are demonstrating. Firstly, Galadriel does not know that Earwen is there until she makes her leap. So she does not think Feanor is trying to kill her mother. From her perspective, it seems as though Feanor is trying only to escape. She certainly does not try to kill her own mother.

While she has distrusted and disliked Feanor, she has still decided to accompany him, intending to travel with him all the way to Middle Earth.

Believe me, there have been decisions that Prof. Olsen & Co. have made that I wasn't thrilled with in the past. This one stems from a desire to give Galadriel agency she does not have in the Published Silmarillion. The way it is written implies heavily that she was with Finarfin and did not participate at all. I'd be ok with that.

Just a reminder, though. At no point do I suggest she actually slaughter the Teleri, nor even attempt to do so. She is actively attempting to stop the Teleri from killing the Noldor that are aboard the ships, and then trying to stop them from killing the Noldor to the right and left of her. When she sees Earwen, she immediately ceases all hostilities and tries to save her.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
MithLuin maybe you should change the line that says ‘Galadriel drops her sword and shield’ to make it super clear that she doesn’t fight.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Ah, good catch. I was thinking that you have to take all that stuff off before you dive into the water, but I can add a line about her being removed enough to not be engaged in any fighting.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I suppose it kind of depends on how big the city is.

Haerengil made a pretty decent map of his conception of Aqualonde here:
https://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/alqualonde.655/

The only problem I have with it is that it is too defensible for a community erected in a state of peace. And it makes it too difficult for Fingolfin to even get into the area to see what is happening without meeting armed resistance. There would have to be some sort of approach to the bay that did not have to go through a walled city to get there.
I'll have to add: alqualonde is NOT a walled city!

It is sheltered from the sea by the rocks and the great arch and from land by surrounding hills and highlands... Of course there are many walls within the city, but these are not defensive walls!

The feanorian host would have camped in the heights northeast or northwest of the map and been able to descend the high paths leading through the city and to the havens without too much trouble, as the city is quite open. Only olwe's residence is on the higher levels of the city and surrounded by some - also not defensive- walls and towers... And his palace is not a point that is attacked as the figting takes place in the harbors and havens on the sea.
 
Last edited:

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I'll have to add: alqualonde is NOT a walled city!

It is sheltered from the sea by the rocks and the great arch and from land by surrounding hills and highlands... Of course there are many walls within the city, but these are not defensive walls!

The feanorian host would have camped in the heights northeast or northwest of the map and been able to descend the high paths leading through the city and to the havens without too much trouble, as the city is quite open. Only olwe's residence is on the higher levels of the city and surrounded by some - also not defensive- walls and towers... And his palace is not a point that is attacked as the figting takes place in the harbors and havens on the sea.

Thank you for clarifying. I like that.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I am trying to understand what you all are saying, but it doesn't match the script as proposed.

This outline does not call for Galadriel to draw her sword against anyone.
Speaking of which, no, Tolkien never said that Galadriel helped kill the Teleri, and neither did we. Galadriel realizes that what is happening is wrong and does not aid in the slaughter, instead, doing something positive.
But then, why is her sword unsheathed? The script says she drops her sword, so she clearly was holding naked steel. She is in the army that's charging up the arch towards her mother with swords drawn and clear intent to kill, in alliance with Fëanor. I saw no mention of her hanging back while Fingolfin and Fingon charge ahead killing Teleri.


We are all agreed that Galadriel is not a Kinslayer. There is *no way* she could speak to Melian as she does if she were guilty, and no way she would be welcome in Doriath.

That means that she does not kill anyone in this fight. Regardless of which side she is seeking to aid, she does not kill anyone.
Well, I do not consider attempted killing morally different from successful killing. If the victim survives for some random reason (such as a missed shot, a clumsy attacker, a hospital, or a miracle) that does not retroactively change the attacker's motivation or make the attack not have happened. It doesn't make them less guilty of trying to kill somebody. For the attacker’s moral state, there is no difference at all in my mind.

This script shows Galadriel draw a sword and join the troop's charge with apparent intent to kill the Teleri on the arch. If for some utterly trivial reason she somehow fails to land a blow, it does not change that she is trying to slaughter them. It does not change that she willingly joins an army charging with drawn weapons directly at Earwen, who is standing in a prominent commander’s position on top of the highest spot in the harbour where every long-eyed Elf can surely see her. She is a Kinslayer. I think Thingol would see it the same way, when he learns. I doubt Angrod would bring it up even in a fit of pique if it meant condemning his own sister.

Galadriel should never draw a weapon on any Teler, ever, under any circumstances whatsoever. Trivial technicalities and body counts do not matter to me at all. She doesn't have to fight against the Noldor or kill Noldor, but her trying to kill the Teleri will never be OK with me. Almost anything at all would be better than Kinslayer Galadriel, except maybe fainting out of sheer pathetic-ness, or being killed, or going back with Finarfin.


I actually do at least partially agree with you - I do not want Galadriel drawing a weapon or fighting in the Kinslaying at all. I am fine with her trying to save someone - and preferably in the water, not in the middle of a fight. Earwen does seem to be the obvious choice, but another random Teleri would be fine.
Saving her mother would have been a neat idea, by itself, if she did not first draw and join the charge up the arch towards Earwen. After doing that, her dive just emphasizes the out-of-character contradiction in her behavior. If she never, ever drew her sword or joined the charge, and explicitly was not trying to kill anybody, the script would be vastly improved. Can't she please do something else? Anything else? Yell at Fingolfin and Fingon or at the archers with words? Try to intervene somehow to stop the fighting instead of joining in?


Firstly, Galadriel does not know that Earwen is there until she makes her leap. So she does not think Feanor is trying to kill her mother.
Then could the script be changed to say that? Please?


Acting against the Noldor is still an act of treachery from the Noldorin point of view even of she doesn't kill them. The idea of Galadriel fighting against the Noldor only works in the 1968 version of her story because she travels to Middle Earth separately from the Noldor and there is no one to hold her accountable for turning against them and because she was in Aqualondë already, not travelling with them.
While she has distrusted and disliked Feanor, she has still decided to accompany him, intending to travel with him all the way to Middle Earth.
Here you are mistaken. She only travelled separately in the 1973 bizarro! version. In the 1968 Shibboleth there is no implication or indication that she didn’t cross the Helkaraxë. She decided to go on to thwart Fëanor out of rage and pride, definitely not to be his ally or follower. Nobody in Fingolfin’s host called her a traitor or tried to get rid of her, IMO because they aren’t fanatical Fëanorian nutcases. They would not support or condone what Fëanor and sons did, once Mandos declares it was unprovoked and wrong. Some eventually forgive, but that isn't the same as approval. Angrod, for example, isn't going to side with Fëanor against his sister. I can't conceive Finrod, nor Fingon, being that harsh against any of Fingolfin's host.

JRRT wrote that Finarfin's sons leave him not because they approve of Fëanor, in fact they are reluctant to go on. But they cannot bear to abandon Fingon and Turgon, who are "bold and fiery of heart." Fingon is a Kinslayer and not eager to be judged by Mandos. Turgon doesn't seem to listen to the Valar except when it was what he wanted to do anyway. Neither brother is fond of Fëanor.

JRR Tolkien Shibboleth of Fëanor said:
So it came to pass that when the light of Valinor failed, for ever as the Ñoldor thought, she joined the rebellion against the Valar who commanded them to stay; and once she had set foot upon that road of exile, she would not relent, but rejected the last message of the Valar, and came under the Doom of Mandos. Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Fëanor in defence of her mother’s kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Fëanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could.
Tolkien never said the Noldor stop her from coming with after this, so he disagrees that they would condem her for “treachery.” Only Fëanorians think that way.

As CRT noted in the Unfinished Tales, the bizarro radical change that removed her entirely from the rebellion and gave her a separate ship only was written in 1973, and makes no sense whatsoever. (UT p. 232: “is profoundly at variance with all that is said elsewhere.”) “Elsewhere” includes the Shibboleth which CRT also quotes in “History of Galadriel and Celeborn”.

I do not advocate for bizarro! Galadriel and her inexplicable ship. If she ever had a ship of her own, surely the Fëanorians would have stolen it.


Is anyone saying she’s siding with killers or Fëanor? I’m confused.
There are two sides in this fight, the Fëanorians and the Teleri. When Fingon (and Fingolfin in this adaptation) join the fight and kill the Teleri, they are explicitly “succor[ing]” Fëanor’s side. If Galadriel draws her sword and helps them, she's helping Fëanor.


She is actively attempting to stop the Teleri from killing the Noldor that are aboard the ships, and then trying to stop them from killing the Noldor to the right and left of her.
If the intent was really for Galadriel not to try killing Teleri, then please please rewrite the script to specify that she does NOT draw a weapon, or join Fingolfin’s charge up the arch, or swing her sword at the Teleri, or kill them.
 
Last edited:

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
In the last session, Corey said (among other things) that when Fingolfin and the others (including Galadriel) rush towards the Teleri archers, they have no clear idea of what they will have to do, just that they want the archers to stop shooting. They don’t even charge with drawn weapons. So presumably Galadriel doesn’t either and while some in Fingolfin’s group do draw their swords later, Galadriel don’t. On the other hand, he said he wanted her to get blood on her, so I guess she has to be close to Irimë when she dies?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
But then, why is her sword unsheathed? The script says she drops her sword, so she clearly was holding naked steel. She is in the army that's charging up the arch towards her mother with swords drawn and clear intent to kill, in alliance with Fëanor. I saw no mention of her hanging back while Fingolfin and Fingon charge ahead killing Teleri.
I feel like the use of Earwen personally as the intended target for Fingolfin, and by extension, Galadriel seems a bit hyperbolic. I don't think it is necessary to place Earwen in a prominent enough position for that to be warranted. We can certainly call that out in the outline. I find it completely believable that Galadriel could miss her standing amongst the Teleri up on the arch from behind the ranks of helmets, spears, shields, and banners. It is not a matter of hanging back, it's a matter of logistics.

Well, I do not consider attempted murder morally different from successful murder. If the victim survives for some random reason (such as a missed shot, a clumsy attacker, a hospital, or a miracle) that does not retroactively change the attacker's motivation or make the attack not have happened. It doesn't make them less guilty of trying to kill somebody. For the attacker’s moral state, there is no difference at all in my mind.
I completely agree with you on this point. I do think, however, that there is a difference between "failure to murder" and "deciding not to murder". If I intend to kill someone, and decide that I should not, that is different from me simply missing an opportunity. Otherwise Luke Skywalker is guilty of killing the disarmed (no pun intended) and wounded Darth Vader.

Galadriel should never draw a weapon on any Teler, ever in her whole life, under any circumstances whatsoever. Trivial technicalities and body counts do not matter to me at all. She doesn't have to fight against the Noldor or kill Noldor, but her trying to kill the Teleri will never be OK with me. Almost anything at all would be better than Kinslayer Galadriel, except maybe fainting out of sheer pathetic-ness, or being killed, or going back with Finarfin.
As I have said before, the context of actions matter. In the outline, the Teleri begin to shoot at Fingolfin's troop because they have (understandably) misread their intentions. To say that Galadriel would never draw a weapon against an attacker seems a bit far-fetched.

And just because Galadriel enters the situation with the wrong understanding does not mean that she is guilty of the Kinslaying, for the reasons I mentioned above.

Saving her mother would have been a neat idea, by itself, if she did not first draw and join the charge up the arch towards Earwen. After doing that, her dive just emphasizes the out-of-character contradiction in her behavior. If she never, ever drew her sword or joined the charge, and explicitly was not trying to kill anybody, the script would be vastly improved.
Unfortunately, these events are not at all instantaneous. If she hangs around the whole time until Earwen jumps, she is either fighting, preparing to fight, or she is complicit.

Nicholas Palazzo: Firstly, Galadriel does not know that Earwen is there until she makes her leap. So she does not think Feanor is trying to kill her mother.

Then couldn't the script at least say that? Please?
A fair request.

Here you are mistaken. She only travelled separately in the 1973 bizarro! version. In the 1968 Shibboleth there is no implication or indication that she didn’t cross the Helkaraxë. She decided to go on to thwart Fëanor out of rage and pride, definitely not to be his ally or follower. Nobody in Fingolfin’s host called her a traitor or tried to get rid of her, IMO because they aren’t fanatical Fëanorian nutcases. They would not support or condone what Fëanor and sons did, once Mandos declares it was unprovoked and wrong. Some eventually forgive, but that isn't the same as approval. Angrod, for example, isn't going to side with Fëanor against his sister. I can't conceive Finrod, nor Fingon, being that harsh against any of Fingolfin's host.

JRRT wrote that Finarfin's sons leave him not because they approve of Fëanor, in fact they are reluctant to go on. But they cannot bear to abandon Fingon and Turgon, who are "bold and fiery of heart." Fingon is a Kinslayer and not eager to be judged by Mandos. Turgon doesn't seem to listen to the Valar except when it was what he wanted to do anyway. Neither brother is fond of Fëanor.

Tolkien never said the Noldor stop her from coming with after this, so he disagrees that they would condem her for “treachery.” Only Fëanorians think that way.

As CRT noted in the Unfinished Tales, the bizarro radical change that removed her entirely from the rebellion and gave her a separate ship only was written in 1973, and makes no sense whatsoever. (UT p. 232: “is profoundly at variance with all that is said elsewhere.”) “Elsewhere” includes the Shibboleth which CRT also quotes in “History of Galadriel and Celeborn”.

I do not advocate for bizarro! Galadriel and her inexplicable ship. If she ever had a ship of her own, surely the Fëanorians would have stolen it.
Ah, my mistake. However, I would argue that the earlier version doesn't work logically, which might be why it isn't in the published Silmarillion.

Just because it is written that way in that version, doesn't mean it works. You are arguing that our version of Galadriel is guilty of the Kinslaying just for being in the group for a time, how much more would the Noldor see her as a traitor for fighting against their own? One would not have to be a Fëanorean to think that way, just a person who just came from a battle.

Haakon: Is anyone saying she’s siding with killers or Fëanor? I’m confused.

There are two sides in this fight, the Fëanorians and the Teleri. When Fingon (and Fingolfin in this adaptation) join the fight and kill the Teleri, they are explicitly “succor[ing]” Fëanor’s side. If Galadriel draws her sword and helps them, she's helping Fëanor.
That is correct, but it is a case of misreading intentions, not bloodthirsty murder.

Nicholas Palazzo: She is actively attempting to stop the Teleri from killing the Noldor that are aboard the ships, and then trying to stop them from killing the Noldor to the right and left of her.

If the intent was really for Galadriel not even trying to kill anyone, then the script would have to be rewritten to specify that she does not draw, join Fingolfin’s charge up the arch, or attack anybody.
Killing to defend your comrades is not the same as murder. And intending to do so, and realizing that you are wrong before you do does not make you a murderer.

I strongly recommend you listen to the most recent session, where Prof. Olsen explains his position better than I could.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I feel like the use of Earwen personally as the intended target for Fingolfin, and by extension, Galadriel seems a bit hyperbolic.
It's certainly less egregious if she can't see Earwen, but she is charging the other Teleri with a drawn sword.

I completely agree with you on this point. I do think, however, that there is a difference between "failure to murder" and "deciding not to murder". If I intend to kill someone, and decide that I should not, that is different from me simply missing an opportunity. Otherwise Luke Skywalker is guilty of killing the disarmed (no pun intended) and wounded Darth Vader.
But Luke did sincerely try to kill Vader. He was really quite fierce about it. Didn't stop until a minute or more of trying, and even chopped off his hand. That counts as trying. Since he then voluntarily stopped it's different from continuing to try, but does not retroactively make him not try to kill.
At no point do I suggest she actually slaughter the Teleri, nor even attempt to do so.
Unfortunately, these events are not at all instantaneous. If she hangs around the whole time until Earwen jumps, she is either fighting, preparing to fight, or she is complicit.
Killing to defend your comrades is not the same as murder. And intending to do so, and realizing that you are wrong before you do does not make you a murderer.
I think you're contradicting yourself, or I do not comprehend you. You say that before seeing Earwen, she does intend to kill Teleri for some length of time. You agree that trying to kill them is morally the same as successfully killing them. But you also said she is not trying to kill them. Which is it? In the current outline proposal she has a drawn sword and is clearly trying to kill them. The outline doesn't even imply that she did not successfully kill Teleri, especially since she only drops her drawn sword after having spent several minutes within the troop that are all charging into the Teleri on the arch, very strongly implied to be killing them.


There are many degrees of guilt in killing somebody: premeditated vs. spur-of-the-moment, innocent accident vs. negligence vs. deliberate, defensive vs. unprovoked, on your own initiative vs. under oath to obey orders vs. coerced by magic/brainwashing/torture, one victim vs. many victims vs. genocide, unrepentant vs. slightly remorseful vs. repentance and making amends, lucid and sane vs. hallucinating/drugged. Fingon is different from Feanor and sons. Thingol admits this, but also doesn't invite Fingon into Doriath.

But I do not see any moral distinction between Galadriel repeatedly swinging her sword at the Teleri and missing for several minutes before she sees Earwen, vs. Galadriel successfully killing the Teleri. Both make her a full-willing, violent participant in Feanor's Kinslaying. Missing every sword-blow for several minutes is morally insignificant (and also implausible against untrained, poorly armed Teleri). In the proposed outline she is therefore a Kinslayer no different from Fingon.

Angrod still won't want to mention it to Thingol, and when he inexplicably does anyway and admits his sister tried to kill Teleri, Thingol will kick her out of Doriath, and Celeborn will be reluctant to marry her.

To say that Galadriel would never draw a weapon against an attacker seems a bit far-fetched.
I say she's a good enough telepath and reader of intentions, and already suspicious enough of Feanor, to immediately realize Feanor attacked first and they are mistakenly shooting her troop in self-defense.

Why can't she do something else before diving, like try to get both sides to stop with words or empty hands or telepathy, try to grab Fingon and yell sense into him, yell at the archers, arrive too late, ANYTHING other than attack the Teleri? Even some of the other people here suggested such ideas.

Telepathy has no range limits and does not require recipients to be able to hear or see the sender, by the way. Being both in an emergency and related to and friends with Fingon and Fingolfin would make it easier for her to contact them over any battle noise, even if she doesn't recognize any friends on the Telerin side, on top of probably being the second-most powerful telepath of the Children of Illuvatar.


Faelivrin, I would be very sad to see you leave this project. I think that you have brought a great deal of insight to this.
It is nice of you to say this. Discussing my favorite book with you folks was fun at first.
 
Last edited:

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Luke did sincerely try to kill Vader. He was really quite fierce about it. He chopped off his hand and didn't stop until a minute or more of trying. That counts as trying. Since he then voluntarily stopped trying that is different from continuing to try, but does not retroactively make him not try to kill.
True, but as you say later on, there is a difference between killing someone in anger in the heat of battle and killing an unarmed and defeated opponent. Luke clearly wanted to do this, but decides not to.

I think you're contradicting yourself, or I do not comprehend you. You say that before seeing Earwen, she does intend and attempt to kill Teleri for some length of time. You agree that is morally the same as successfully killing them. But then you also said she is not trying to kill them. Which is it? In the current outline proposal she has a drawn sword and is clearly trying to kill them. The outline doesn't even imply that she did not successfully kill Teleri, especially since she only drops her drawn sword after having spent several minutes within the troop that are all charging into the Teleri on the arch, very strongly implied to be killing them.

But I do not accept any moral distinction between Galadriel repeatedly swinging her sword at the Teleri and missing for several minutes before she sees Earwen, vs. Galadriel successfully killing the Teleri. Both make her a full-willing, violent participant in Feanor's Kinslaying. Missing every sword-blow for several minutes is a morally insignificant triviality. In the proposed outline she is therefore a Kinslayer no different from Fingon.
It is very clear to me that somewhere along the line, there is a failure to communicate here, especially because you think we envision Galadriel swinging her sword at people. Despite what is commonly depicted in films, lines of troops do not typically pass through each other. In this situation, Fingolfin & Co. are moving up the arch, probably four abreast. I would say that Galadriel is about six to ten rows back from Fingolfin and Fingon. That would mean that several dozen armored people would have to be killed by arrow fire from "light bows" for Galadriel to reach the front. Before Galadriel can even engage, she sees Earwen. She takes no swings, but is advancing under archery fire.

This differentiates her from Fingon, who actually attacks and kills the Teleri.

The entire advance starts out as an attempt to stop the Teleri from killing the Fëanoreans, non-violently if possible. This turns out to not be possible when Irimë is killed.

I say she's a good enough telepath and reader of intentions, and already suspicious enough of Feanor, to immediately realize Feanor attacked first and they are mistakenly shooting her troop in self-defense.

Why can't she do something else before diving, like try to get both sides to stop with words or empty hands or telepathy, try to grab Fingon and yell sense into him, yell at the archers, arrive too late, ANYTHING other than attack the Teleri? Even some of the other people here suggested such ideas.

Telepathy has no range limits and does not require recipients to be able to hear or see the sender, by the way. Being both in an emergency and related to and friends with Fingon and Fingolfin would make it easier for her to contact them over any battle noise, even if she doesn't recognize any friends on the Telerin side, on top of probably being the second-most powerful telepath of the Children of Illuvatar. After my shower I will find out if telepathy can be sent at many people at once.
So, here's a part where it gets a bit dicey. Firstly, I've never seen any evidence of Galadriel using telepathy or mind-reading of any kind this early in the Silmarillion. There may be in later stories, but you tell me.

Secondly, she can't grab or shout to Fingon or Fingolfin beccause they are too far ahead of her, as I've mentioned earlier.

Thirdly, if we did give her the full suite of telepathic abilities that she has thousands of years later in LoTR, why does she not stop the whole thing? If we decide that the young Galadriel is already at the height of her power, then she would have to not be present to make it work.

Ultimately, I was not amongst those who felt strongly that Galadriel must be present at the Kinslaying. But if she is there, there are constraints. She cannot kill anyone. Period. She cannot do anything that the Noldor would consider traitorous (such as turning on them). And she cannot even attempt to cut down one of the Teleri.

That means that she must: do nothing (which people were against because Galadriel is a woman and they did not want to say that a woman would do such a thing), treat the wounded (which people did not like, because it suggests that doing so is "woman's work"), try unsuccessfully to talk down the combatants (Which I think would make her look foolish or naive. It is extremely difficult to break up an active fight between several people without grabbing them. To do so amongst hundreds or thousands is impossible.), to or initially move towards the fray, but desist before taking a swing at anyone.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Nicholas, I do not dispute your intentions, but I'm expressing my great dismay with the words in the actual script itself, and BEGGING you all to please please change the words.
MithLuin maybe you should change the line that says ‘Galadriel drops her sword and shield’ to make it super clear that she doesn’t fight.
In the last session, Corey said (among other things) that when Fingolfin and the others (including Galadriel) rush towards the Teleri archers, they have no clear idea of what they will have to do, just that they want the archers to stop shooting. They don’t even charge with drawn weapons. So presumably Galadriel doesn’t either and while some in Fingolfin’s group do draw their swords later, Galadriel don’t. On the other hand, he said he wanted her to get blood on her, so I guess she has to be close to Irimë when she dies?
Galadriel's explicitly unsheathed sword is a huge problem in the current script. If she is not swinging her sword and trying to kill them, she would not draw her sword in the first place, especially while joining in a charge led by Fingon, who canonically is killing people.

If you folks didn't mean for Galadriel to be swinging her sword trying to kill Teleri, I beg you to please change the script to remove the passage that describes her charging with an unsheathed sword. To just mention in the script that she's not swinging and killing. I don't think that is too much to ask, if her trying to kill wasn't the writers' intention in the first place.


Firstly, I've never seen any evidence of Galadriel using telepathy or mind-reading of any kind this early in the Silmarillion. There may be in later stories, but you tell me.

Secondly, she can't grab or shout to Fingon or Fingolfin beccause they are too far ahead of her, as I've mentioned earlier.

Thirdly, if we did give her the full suite of telepathic abilities that she has thousands of years later in LoTR, why does she not stop the whole thing? If we decide that the young Galadriel is already at the height of her power, then she would have to not be present to make it work.
I just reread Ósanwë-kenta. It's hard to summarize but I don't think telepathy would let her stop the battle, or even stop the charge of Fingolfin's people.

All Elves have telepathy, though not all are equally talented. What is needed is urgency, authority, consanguinuity, or friendship and warmth of heart to both read minds and send thoughts, but one of these has to be strong for an Incarnate to successfully contact another, and most aren't in the habit of using it at all, except when noise or distance makes talking impossible. And even then Eldar (or at least, Noldor) have sign language and incredible eyesight for many such circumstances.

I don't think you will find an explicit description of anyone using telepathy in the First Age, except when Feanor read Melkor's mind at Formenos, and Finrod read the Mortals' minds. Numerous stories that would warrant or urgently motivate telepathy don't mention it because Tolkien apparently hadn't made it up until after he stopped writing most First Age narrative, or because the stories don't include much detail. Maedhros does not use it on Thangorodrim, nobody uses it in battles that would really benefit from telepathy. Curufin has no clue Eol is prepared to murder wife and child when he blithely tells Eol precisely where to find them. That doesn't mean Elves couldn't use it until the Third Age, only that it wasn't mentioned. Telepathy is amazing if you can use it tactically during battle, but probably isn't reliable enough for that, and wouldn't show up in a story with little detail. Mind-reading can be blocked by anyone at all no matter how powerful the reader, except while speaking out loud. Even Finrod can't quite turn it into a universal translator. The only thing that really stands out is its total lack of range limits, to the extent it can cross whole continents, and that might just contradict the stories. Still, without an enhancement like a palantir, most people can't do much with it.

IMO Galadriel's use in the LotR is remarkable in her ability to contact total strangers while calm, but not in her having telepathy in the first place. I doubt it was the limit of her abilities in the Third Age. However, Galadriel is described, already during the Rebellion, in terms that both imply strong telepathy and describe personality traits which would give her strong telepathy. Her brother Finrod is explicitly the greatest telepath of all the Children. Her “remarkable gift of insight into the minds of others” and her very strong and lifelong suspicion of Fëanor are more than enough for her to think that the fight was started by Fëanor instead of the Teleri. Really, I think the burden of proof is entirely on those who say she would assume that Fëanor, whom she apparently hates, who swore to murder people, is 100% innocent and the Teleri started it.

In the First Age she should have no problem in attempting to contact her own cousin Fingon in the urgency of battle. There is no need for Galadriel to succeed. It's hard to contact a mind that is otherwise engaged in other thoughts. On the other hand, if the receiver's emotions have some resemblance to the sender's emotions and the sender's are urgent this makes it easier to receive rather than harder.

"Only great minds can converse with more than one other at the same time; several may confer, but then at one time only one is imparting, while the others receive". (Osanwe-kenta, VT #39 p. 30). This could refer to the sort of converse described near the end of the Lord of the Rings between the Three Keepers, but the context here suggests to me that "great minds" means Ainur. I would not think young Galadriel can contact more than one at once, let alone a whole troop.

So telepathy does not let her stop the battle. It might get one relative or close friend to stop, if she can reach them and persuade them.

Even if Galadriel assumes for no good reason that Feanor is innocent and peaceful, and she's incapable of telepathy yet, she can still try to physically or verbally stop people who are closer than Fingon.
 
Last edited:

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I really don't think Galadriel believes that Fëanor is innocent and peaceful, and I don't think anyone is implying that. It's an open question though what Galadriel assumes exactly (and perhaps we don't have to go into that). Suddenly, friends are killing each other. This is potentially extremely shocking, and people, even great Noldor elves, should react irrationally to it. As I've tried to say earlier, the situation should be very unclear, chaotic and stressing. People will not immidiately know how to act, what to say or how to assess the situation. And for every person who acts irrationally, there will be more chaos.

So telepathy does not let her stop the battle. It might get one relative or close friend to stop, if she can reach them and persuade them.
I think this definitely could be included (and I would love it).
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Nick, I will not dispute your intentions, but I'm expressing my great dismay with the words in the actual script itself, and BEGGING you to consider changing the words.

Galadriel's explicitly unsheathed sword is a huge problem in the current script. If she is not swinging her sword and trying to kill them, she would not draw her sword in the first place, especially while joining in a charge led by Fingon, who canonically is killing people.

If you folks didn't mean for Galadriel to be swinging her sword trying to kill Teleri, I beg you to please change the script to remove the passage that describes her charging with an unsheathed sword. To just mention in the script that she's not swinging and killing. I don't think that is too much to ask, if her trying to kill wasn't the writers' intention
Just going to jump in right now to point out that I did alter the outline to explicitly state that Galadriel does not engage in combat when Haakon pointed out the ambiguity. One must remove a sword belt before jumping in the water, so I don't think it makes sense to remove the reference to Galadriel's doing so. Please let me know if you find the outline in its current state to be ambiguous. (Though it could really use some polishing and expansion before being submitted, anyway. This is just a rough draft.)

As for telepathy, we did not really explicitly introduce that ability among elves in Season 2. We did include the palantiri. So it would probably be confusing to introduce a new elven trait or ability in the middle of this battle, though the urgency and horror of everything might make sense as an impetus for that. It is possible that we intend to expand Galadriel's abilities under her tutelage with Melian. Perhaps we could show a hint of them here? Perhaps that helps her find Earwen? (If we go with the 'Earwen lives' version.)
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Just going to jump in right now to point out that I did alter the outline to explicitly state that Galadriel does not engage in combat when Haakon pointed out the ambiguity. One must remove a sword belt before jumping in the water, so I don't think it makes sense to remove the reference to Galadriel's doing so. Please let me know if you find the outline in its current state to be ambiguous. (Though it could really use some polishing and expansion before being submitted, anyway. This is just a rough draft.)
I am very grateful and relieved that you changed it. Thank you. It no longer shows her trying to kill people. It is somewhat unclear still ("drops her sword" means her sword was unsheathed, whereas "drops her sword-belt" would show she had not drawn it yet. It doesn't yet say that she first at that moment learned her mother was present.

She could be near the base of the Arch hanging back from the advance, or she could be breaking out of Fingolfin's advance and running back down -- it's currently unclear which, and from Nicholas' more detailed description of the advance I don't know if there'd be room for her to run back down, she'd have to run between or around the other Noldor in her path. To be able to reach the base of the Arch and dive, it may be impossible for her to go up the Arch, in which case she would have stayed back, realizing this was all wrong. How wide is the arch?

Ultimately it is still also unclear what Fingolfin et al are doing on the way up the arch, and still implied they draw and start swinging from the start -- adding more details would be necessary to establish what Haakon says Corey agreed to with Fingolfin's group not immediately drawing swords and killing. It could be said they are confused and have no idea what they are doing, and don't think it through even to the point of realizing they can't go with bare hands into a hail of arrows. They don't all necessarily even have their shields or swords or armor with them, since they presumably didn't plan or expect to join a battle.


Given telepathy wasn't mentioned in Season 2, I'm not sure how to introduce it. I like the idea of urgency and horror lending strength (as it would) to her attempt to get somebody to stop, though I think it unlikely she'd succeed -- whether or not she contacts somebody, who will listen? However you could keep Turgon's hands clean (it's somewhat weird for him be involved) by her persuading him to stop, while Fingolfin and Fingon keep on going. Her finding Earwen by reaching out with her thought is also a good idea (I would like Earwen to live). Getting more skill under Melian's tutelage would make sense later.
 

dietlbomb

Member
It's possible that Galadriel is the only Noldor to remain in exile because she was the only one of her generation to survive the 1st age. Maedhros and Maglor are summoned to stand trial, but they refuse to go, and everyone else is dead. The other surviving Noldor are of lower rank and may not hold the same guilt as their leaders.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I will be sending this outline along to the Execs in the next 24 hours for their review. I realize that the idea that Earwen dies here is extremely unpopular; I am allowing them to see the idea and shoot it down if they dislike it. The episode will still work either way (ending in grief), so I'm not worried about fixing it later.

Season 3 Episode 2: The Kinslaying


Protagonist(s): Fingolfin, with Maedhros as a secondary protagonist.
The events in this episode are *not* seen from Fëanor's point of view, but he is driving the action.

Introductions: N/A
Final Appearances: Olwë, (potentially) Earwen, Irimë...and a *lot* of Teleri sailors.

Characters: Fëanor, the seven Sons of Fëanor, Irimë, Fingolfin, Anairë, Fingon, Turgon, Aredhel, Finarfin, Earwen, Galadriel, the sons of Finarfin, Olwë, Uinen, Huan.

Summary
: Fëanor's sense of urgency and attempt to expand his rebellion has tragic consequences for the Teleri.

Theme: Extreme failure to communicate. A game of chicken in which the vehicles continue to speed towards one another and neither swerves, both presuming the other will have the good sense to back down. Ie, brinksmanship leads to nuclear annihilation.


Teaser: Frame - Young Estel is discovered to be missing from Rivendell. Elladan and Elrohir are sent to look for him. On his own in the Wild, Estel faces some basic survival challenges successfully. Elladan and Elrohir find his trail.

ACT 1
1.
Farewells and Packing in Tirion. Fingolfin and Finarfin talk to their wives (Anairë and Earwen, respectively). Fingolfin reiterates his intention to be true to his word and follow his older brother. Finarfin thinks there are worse things than breaking your word, and he's not convinced this entire enterprise won't end in disaster. Earwen is in tears, and says she will not depart Valinor, the only home she has ever known. Anairë says that she won't leave Valinor, because she wishes to stay with Earwen, who is like a sister to her, but she will at least see her husband on his way. Irimë comes in and tells them to hurry up and get moving - it's time to go.

2. Olwë and Uinen meet in the harbor of Alqualondë. The Teleri are hanging lamps to drive back the darkness. Olwë is not afraid, and expresses trust that the Valar will deal with Melkor as they did before. He is concerned for the well-being of the elves left behind in Middle Earth now that Melkor is there. [Name-drop Círdan.] Uinen alludes to Olwë's purpose in Ulmo's plan, being the link back to Middle Earth.

3. The Sons of Fëanor are urging the Noldor to pack quickly and to travel light. They can make new things in their new realms across the Sea. Parting artisans from their craftsmanship is difficult, though, and there are many who have trouble leaving their work behind. In particular, some of the builders insist that they can't leave their beloved city. Fëanor's urgency has been translated to his Sons, and they're not all polite in their efforts to get the people moving. Celegorm has Huan herd them like sheep, nipping at their heels or head-butting them if they don't move quickly enough. Maedhros chastises his brother and is more reasonable, but still insistent that they have to leave - the sooner the better. [For all his brave words, Fëanor expects an intervention from the Valar, and would like to leave before they figure out the Noldor have rebelled. But, this will be unstated.]

4. Eonwë, herald of Manwë, arrives and speaks for the Valar. He makes it clear that the Valar will *not* intervene, and that the Noldor are free to depart. Fëanor answers him back proudly, addressing his remarks to the crowd rather than the herald, but Eonwë does not show any indication of having been insulted. The people murmur a bit, but no one goes back to their homes after Eonwë departs. The contingent lead by Fëanor is ready, and they depart. Fingolfin's people are still in the city of Tirion.


ACT 2

5. Earwen goes to Alqualondë to talk her father Olwë. She gives an outsider/citizen of Tirion view of the events since the Darkening and of the death of their King. Olwë advises patience and trust in the Valar - who will surely do something about Melkor. He has been witness to the power of the Valar (in the War of the Powers). Olwë reminds us of the elvish view of death, and expresses that he does not personally fear death. The Teleri are much more chill than the Noldor in general, but especially now. Olwë more explicitly mentions his purpose in building a fleet of ships that can cross the ocean.

6. The Fëanorean host have stopped and set up some tents near to Alqualondë (but not in sight of the harbor). Fëanor sends his sons into the city. Maedhros et al ask around for Olwë, to set up a meeting. Rather than being directed to the palace, they are directed to the harbor, where Olwë is seen doing something surprisingly mundane. (Fishing, helping out with the hanging of lamps, etc.) Maedhros is surprised - Olwë is not who he expected him to be. Olwë agrees to meet with Fëanor.

7. The Host of Fingolfin leaves Tirion. Someone expresses for the first time the fear that the Fëanoreans will leave them behind. Turgon keeps turning around to look back at the city of Tirion as they depart. Fingolfin chastises Turgon, saying that once you make a decision you have to stick with it and see it through. You can't keep looking back and be divided. The first expression of 'you can never go home.' Galadriel expresses a desire for realms of her own in Middle Earth.

8. Fëanor meets with Olwë in the palace of Alqualondë, with the full court gathered. The court of the Teleri is made up of master shipbuilders and ship captains, mostly. Earwen is there with her brothers, but Fëanor gives no indication that he sees her, and he does not address her in his greeting to Olwë. Fëanor brings some (but not all?) of his sons with him. Fëanor begins by inviting the Teleri to join in their endeavor - they are going back to Middle Earth to reclaim what is theirs (the silmarils) and to make Morgoth (a name he has to clarify for them) pay for the death of their king (Fëanor's father). The Teleri are sad to hear that the Noldor are leaving, and Olwë invites them to stay awhile longer, as they will be sorely missed. Fëanor is a bit thrown that his oratory, which has always swayed and persuaded people towards his viewpoint in the past, seems to have no affect on them. Fëanor emphasizes that he cannot stay or delay his mission in any way - it is imperative that he go immediately. He hopes that, if the Teleri will not join them, they will at least be willing to aid them by ferrying them across Belegaer? Olwë seems to consider this idea for a time, knowing that it is one of his purposes in having built the fleet of swanships in the first place. Olwë brings up the Valar, and asks what they think of the Noldor's mission to Middle Earth? Fëanor cannot help but reveal some of his scorn for the Valar, and the fact that while they have not forbidden him from leaving, they haven't exactly given their blessing, either. At this point, Olwë's entire court looks extremely skeptical of having anything to do with the Noldor. Olwë declines to aid the Noldor in their mission if it is not Valar-sanctioned. Fëanor brings up all that the Noldor have done for the Teleri, including building Alqualondë, and finally requests that if they will not take them to Middle Earth, can they not at the very least lend the Noldor their ships? The Teleri are scandalized by the suggestion, and reply by comparing the swanships to the silmarils - the works of their hands and precious to them...and not for others' use. While they are able to speak Fëanor's language, he (apparently) cannot speak theirs. The negotiations have broken down, and Fëanor storms out, furious.

ACT 3
9. The sons of Fëanor go to reconnoiter around the harbor, determining the number of ships and whether or not they're manned. At this point, it is clear that they intend to steal the ships, since they do need them to reach Middle Earth. They (particularly Caranthir and Celegorm) express anger that the Teleri have insulted them and refused to help them, and have many disparaging things to say about their lack of courage and stinginess in refusing to help their own kin. They call them 'shoreland pipers' and don't think it takes much skill to sail a ship. They do not have anything unkind to say about the ships, though, unable to help but admire the craftsmanship. Curufin notices the strategic importance of the Arch at the entrance to the harbor, and points this out to Maedhros (who seems confused as to why his brother would bring that up). They meet some Teleri who are suspicious of the Fëanoreans' intentions, and then the Sons leave to report back to their father.

10. In the camp of the Fëanoreans, everyone is packing up and getting ready - putting on full armor. The force from Formenos is uniform; the Noldor of Tirion are more lightly armed and do not match. Fëanor gives his people a speech to prepare them for taking the ships. He says that the Teleri have allied themselves with Morgoth by refusing to aid the Noldor. He also says that they are cowards, who will back down as soon as they see the might of the Noldor. His fiery oratory has a much stronger effect on his followers than it did on the Teleri of Olwë's court.

11a. The host of the Fëanoreans descend upon the harbor of the Teleri. Some ships are unmanned, and taken quickly (Fëanor is on one of these.) There are many Teleri on the quays, and they try to prevent the Noldor from reaching the ships. Some brawling breaks out, but it's weaponless fist fights at first. Some of the apparently unmanned ships had Teleri below decks, so there is fighting on the ships as well. The Noldor struggle greatly to get the ships underway. The Teleri retaliate by throwing Noldor in the water - but the heavy weight of the armor combined with the deep water of the harbor makes this a fatal action in some cases. Maedhros is the first to run a Teleri elf through with a sword, reacting to someone attacking Maglor. Bloody, deadly fighting does not break out in all locations simultaneously, but the fighting quickly escalates to a massacre throughout the harbor.

11b. The host of Fingolfin comes upon the abandoned/hastily deconstructed Fëanorean camp. They don't know what has happened, but Fingolfin suspects an ambush from the Teleri. He gathers his fighting force (including Irimë and Galadriel and his sons), and leaves others (Anairë and Finarfin) behind with the baggage. Someone complains about Aredhel being lost again.

12. The death of Olwë. The Teleri have no armor and no swords but they are not weaponless. They have knives, harpoons, nets, grappling hooks, spears, bows and arrows, etc. Olwë sends some archers up onto the Arch, with the instruction not to let the ships leave the harbor. Earwen goes with them (she too is an archer). Olwë and his sons get into smaller boats to try to reboard the ships the Noldor have manned. Pirate fighting, with the Noldor repelling boarders. Olwë does not leave his rowboat, but shouts up to Fëanor, imploring him to put a stop to this madness. Fëanor answers him with a spear, and Olwë dies. Earwen, seeing the death of her father, gives the command for the archers to fire.

ACT 4
13. Celegorm's ship is overrun by Teleri boarders. Huan helps to chase them back off non-lethally. He is defending his master, and 'herding' the Teleri the same way we saw him herding the Noldor earlier. Some Noldor die from Teleri arrows (in the eye, throat, gaps in the armor), but for the most part the armor of the Fëanoreans works to protect them from these light hunting bows.

14. Fingolfin's host comes upon the scene in the harbor. He sees the Teleri shooting from the Arch and takes some of his force to put a stop to that (the rest go to the piers to back up the Noldor still fighting there). Seeing this, Maedhros leads a force to try to take the other side of the Arch, trapping the Teleri archers. The archers turn on Fingolfin's (lightly armored) host. Irimë dies from an arrow. Fingolfin goes mad and charges into the archers with his sword. Earwen takes a swan dive off the Arch [striking a rock outcropping on the way down?]. Galadriel, who was not involved in the fighting but nearby, drops her sword and shield and runs down to the base of the Arch, diving into the water to try to save her mother.

15. Maedhros and Fingolfin meet in the middle of the Arch. Maedhros is elated and covered in blood. Fingolfin is grieving and upset. Fëanor's ship escapes the harbor under the Arch, the first of the stolen fleet to leave Alqualondë. Fëanor on the deck of the ship looks up and meets Fingolfin's eyes on the Arch.

Tag: Finarfin arrives in the harbor, horrified by the carnage and bloodshed. There are dead bodies floating in the water (nearly all Teleri, but a few Noldor amongst them) and blood everywhere. Galadriel has found Earwen [or her dead body], and Finarfin is grieved to see that his wife has died. Anairë grieves the loss of her friend (and says she will remain in Valinor to wait for her?) Weeping of the Teleri in the relatively quiet aftermath of the battle. The last of the stolen ships leave the harbor, passing under the Arch out into the Sea.
 
Last edited:
Top