S03E02 Script Discussion

Discussion in 'Season 3' started by Nicholas Palazzo, Sep 15, 2017.

  1. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member


    Faelivrin, I would be very sad to see you leave this project. I think that you have brought a great deal of insight to this.

    I hope that I can help mitigate some of the fears you are demonstrating. Firstly, Galadriel does not know that Earwen is there until she makes her leap. So she does not think Feanor is trying to kill her mother. From her perspective, it seems as though Feanor is trying only to escape. She certainly does not try to kill her own mother.

    While she has distrusted and disliked Feanor, she has still decided to accompany him, intending to travel with him all the way to Middle Earth.

    Believe me, there have been decisions that Prof. Olsen & Co. have made that I wasn't thrilled with in the past. This one stems from a desire to give Galadriel agency she does not have in the Published Silmarillion. The way it is written implies heavily that she was with Finarfin and did not participate at all. I'd be ok with that.

    Just a reminder, though. At no point do I suggest she actually slaughter the Teleri, nor even attempt to do so. She is actively attempting to stop the Teleri from killing the Noldor that are aboard the ships, and then trying to stop them from killing the Noldor to the right and left of her. When she sees Earwen, she immediately ceases all hostilities and tries to save her.
     
  2. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    MithLuin maybe you should change the line that says ‘Galadriel drops her sword and shield’ to make it super clear that she doesn’t fight.
     
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  3. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Ah, good catch. I was thinking that you have to take all that stuff off before you dive into the water, but I can add a line about her being removed enough to not be engaged in any fighting.
     
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  4. Haerangil

    Haerangil Well-Known Member

    I'll have to add: alqualonde is NOT a walled city!

    It is sheltered from the sea by the rocks and the great arch and from land by surrounding hills and highlands... Of course there are many walls within the city, but these are not defensive walls!

    The feanorian host would have camped in the heights northeast or northwest of the map and been able to descend the high paths leading through the city and to the havens without too much trouble, as the city is quite open. Only olwe's residence is on the higher levels of the city and surrounded by some - also not defensive- walls and towers... And his palace is not a point that is attacked as the figting takes place in the harbors and havens on the sea.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
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  5. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member


    Thank you for clarifying. I like that.
     
  6. Haerangil

    Haerangil Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry for my map being kind of vague.. I still hadn't taken time to work on more details
     
  7. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    The only thing that would have prevented that was topographical lines showing that the heights were not a sheer drop. What you have is fine. :)
     
  8. Haerangil

    Haerangil Well-Known Member

    Yes, i always wanted to add topographicsl lines... I will do in the next version..
     
  9. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Active Member

    I am trying to understand what you all are saying, but it doesn't match the script as proposed.

    But then, why is her sword unsheathed? The script says she drops her sword, so she clearly was holding naked steel. She is in the army that's charging up the arch towards her mother with swords drawn and clear intent to kill, in alliance with Fëanor. I saw no mention of her hanging back while Fingolfin and Fingon charge ahead killing Teleri.


    Well, I do not consider attempted killing morally different from successful killing. If the victim survives for some random reason (such as a missed shot, a clumsy attacker, a hospital, or a miracle) that does not retroactively change the attacker's motivation or make the attack not have happened. It doesn't make them less guilty of trying to kill somebody. For the attacker’s moral state, there is no difference at all in my mind.

    This script shows Galadriel draw a sword and join the troop's charge with apparent intent to kill the Teleri on the arch. If for some utterly trivial reason she somehow fails to land a blow, it does not change that she is trying to slaughter them. It does not change that she willingly joins an army charging with drawn weapons directly at Earwen, who is standing in a prominent commander’s position on top of the highest spot in the harbour where every long-eyed Elf can surely see her. She is a Kinslayer. I think Thingol would see it the same way, when he learns. I doubt Angrod would bring it up even in a fit of pique if it meant condemning his own sister.

    Galadriel should never draw a weapon on any Teler, ever, under any circumstances whatsoever. Trivial technicalities and body counts do not matter to me at all. She doesn't have to fight against the Noldor or kill Noldor, but her trying to kill the Teleri will never be OK with me. Almost anything at all would be better than Kinslayer Galadriel, except maybe fainting out of sheer pathetic-ness, or being killed, or going back with Finarfin.


    Saving her mother would have been a neat idea, by itself, if she did not first draw and join the charge up the arch towards Earwen. After doing that, her dive just emphasizes the out-of-character contradiction in her behavior. If she never, ever drew her sword or joined the charge, and explicitly was not trying to kill anybody, the script would be vastly improved. Can't she please do something else? Anything else? Yell at Fingolfin and Fingon or at the archers with words? Try to intervene somehow to stop the fighting instead of joining in?


    Then could the script be changed to say that? Please?


    Here you are mistaken. She only travelled separately in the 1973 bizarro! version. In the 1968 Shibboleth there is no implication or indication that she didn’t cross the Helkaraxë. She decided to go on to thwart Fëanor out of rage and pride, definitely not to be his ally or follower. Nobody in Fingolfin’s host called her a traitor or tried to get rid of her, IMO because they aren’t fanatical Fëanorian nutcases. They would not support or condone what Fëanor and sons did, once Mandos declares it was unprovoked and wrong. Some eventually forgive, but that isn't the same as approval. Angrod, for example, isn't going to side with Fëanor against his sister. I can't conceive Finrod, nor Fingon, being that harsh against any of Fingolfin's host.

    JRRT wrote that Finarfin's sons leave him not because they approve of Fëanor, in fact they are reluctant to go on. But they cannot bear to abandon Fingon and Turgon, who are "bold and fiery of heart." Fingon is a Kinslayer and not eager to be judged by Mandos. Turgon doesn't seem to listen to the Valar except when it was what he wanted to do anyway. Neither brother is fond of Fëanor.

    Tolkien never said the Noldor stop her from coming with after this, so he disagrees that they would condem her for “treachery.” Only Fëanorians think that way.

    As CRT noted in the Unfinished Tales, the bizarro radical change that removed her entirely from the rebellion and gave her a separate ship only was written in 1973, and makes no sense whatsoever. (UT p. 232: “is profoundly at variance with all that is said elsewhere.”) “Elsewhere” includes the Shibboleth which CRT also quotes in “History of Galadriel and Celeborn”.

    I do not advocate for bizarro! Galadriel and her inexplicable ship. If she ever had a ship of her own, surely the Fëanorians would have stolen it.


    There are two sides in this fight, the Fëanorians and the Teleri. When Fingon (and Fingolfin in this adaptation) join the fight and kill the Teleri, they are explicitly “succor[ing]” Fëanor’s side. If Galadriel draws her sword and helps them, she's helping Fëanor.


    If the intent was really for Galadriel not to try killing Teleri, then please please rewrite the script to specify that she does NOT draw a weapon, or join Fingolfin’s charge up the arch, or swing her sword at the Teleri, or kill them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
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  10. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    In the last session, Corey said (among other things) that when Fingolfin and the others (including Galadriel) rush towards the Teleri archers, they have no clear idea of what they will have to do, just that they want the archers to stop shooting. They don’t even charge with drawn weapons. So presumably Galadriel doesn’t either and while some in Fingolfin’s group do draw their swords later, Galadriel don’t. On the other hand, he said he wanted her to get blood on her, so I guess she has to be close to Irimë when she dies?
     
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  11. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    I feel like the use of Earwen personally as the intended target for Fingolfin, and by extension, Galadriel seems a bit hyperbolic. I don't think it is necessary to place Earwen in a prominent enough position for that to be warranted. We can certainly call that out in the outline. I find it completely believable that Galadriel could miss her standing amongst the Teleri up on the arch from behind the ranks of helmets, spears, shields, and banners. It is not a matter of hanging back, it's a matter of logistics.

    I completely agree with you on this point. I do think, however, that there is a difference between "failure to murder" and "deciding not to murder". If I intend to kill someone, and decide that I should not, that is different from me simply missing an opportunity. Otherwise Luke Skywalker is guilty of killing the disarmed (no pun intended) and wounded Darth Vader.

    As I have said before, the context of actions matter. In the outline, the Teleri begin to shoot at Fingolfin's troop because they have (understandably) misread their intentions. To say that Galadriel would never draw a weapon against an attacker seems a bit far-fetched.

    And just because Galadriel enters the situation with the wrong understanding does not mean that she is guilty of the Kinslaying, for the reasons I mentioned above.

    Unfortunately, these events are not at all instantaneous. If she hangs around the whole time until Earwen jumps, she is either fighting, preparing to fight, or she is complicit.

    A fair request.

    Ah, my mistake. However, I would argue that the earlier version doesn't work logically, which might be why it isn't in the published Silmarillion.

    Just because it is written that way in that version, doesn't mean it works. You are arguing that our version of Galadriel is guilty of the Kinslaying just for being in the group for a time, how much more would the Noldor see her as a traitor for fighting against their own? One would not have to be a Fëanorean to think that way, just a person who just came from a battle.

    That is correct, but it is a case of misreading intentions, not bloodthirsty murder.

    Killing to defend your comrades is not the same as murder. And intending to do so, and realizing that you are wrong before you do does not make you a murderer.

    I strongly recommend you listen to the most recent session, where Prof. Olsen explains his position better than I could.
     
  12. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Active Member

    It's certainly less egregious if she can't see Earwen, but she is charging the other Teleri with a drawn sword.

    But Luke did sincerely try to kill Vader. He was really quite fierce about it. Didn't stop until a minute or more of trying, and even chopped off his hand. That counts as trying. Since he then voluntarily stopped it's different from continuing to try, but does not retroactively make him not try to kill.
    I think you're contradicting yourself, or I do not comprehend you. You say that before seeing Earwen, she does intend to kill Teleri for some length of time. You agree that trying to kill them is morally the same as successfully killing them. But you also said she is not trying to kill them. Which is it? In the current outline proposal she has a drawn sword and is clearly trying to kill them. The outline doesn't even imply that she did not successfully kill Teleri, especially since she only drops her drawn sword after having spent several minutes within the troop that are all charging into the Teleri on the arch, very strongly implied to be killing them.


    There are many degrees of guilt in killing somebody: premeditated vs. spur-of-the-moment, innocent accident vs. negligence vs. deliberate, defensive vs. unprovoked, on your own initiative vs. under oath to obey orders vs. coerced by magic/brainwashing/torture, one victim vs. many victims vs. genocide, unrepentant vs. slightly remorseful vs. repentance and making amends, lucid and sane vs. hallucinating/drugged. Fingon is different from Feanor and sons. Thingol admits this, but also doesn't invite Fingon into Doriath.

    But I do not see any moral distinction between Galadriel repeatedly swinging her sword at the Teleri and missing for several minutes before she sees Earwen, vs. Galadriel successfully killing the Teleri. Both make her a full-willing, violent participant in Feanor's Kinslaying. Missing every sword-blow for several minutes is morally insignificant (and also implausible against untrained, poorly armed Teleri). In the proposed outline she is therefore a Kinslayer no different from Fingon.

    Angrod still won't want to mention it to Thingol, and when he inexplicably does anyway and admits his sister tried to kill Teleri, Thingol will kick her out of Doriath, and Celeborn will be reluctant to marry her.

    I say she's a good enough telepath and reader of intentions, and already suspicious enough of Feanor, to immediately realize Feanor attacked first and they are mistakenly shooting her troop in self-defense.

    Why can't she do something else before diving, like try to get both sides to stop with words or empty hands or telepathy, try to grab Fingon and yell sense into him, yell at the archers, arrive too late, ANYTHING other than attack the Teleri? Even some of the other people here suggested such ideas.

    Telepathy has no range limits and does not require recipients to be able to hear or see the sender, by the way. Being both in an emergency and related to and friends with Fingon and Fingolfin would make it easier for her to contact them over any battle noise, even if she doesn't recognize any friends on the Telerin side, on top of probably being the second-most powerful telepath of the Children of Illuvatar.


    It is nice of you to say this. Discussing my favorite book with you folks was fun at first.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
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  13. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    True, but as you say later on, there is a difference between killing someone in anger in the heat of battle and killing an unarmed and defeated opponent. Luke clearly wanted to do this, but decides not to.


    It is very clear to me that somewhere along the line, there is a failure to communicate here, especially because you think we envision Galadriel swinging her sword at people. Despite what is commonly depicted in films, lines of troops do not typically pass through each other. In this situation, Fingolfin & Co. are moving up the arch, probably four abreast. I would say that Galadriel is about six to ten rows back from Fingolfin and Fingon. That would mean that several dozen armored people would have to be killed by arrow fire from "light bows" for Galadriel to reach the front. Before Galadriel can even engage, she sees Earwen. She takes no swings, but is advancing under archery fire.

    This differentiates her from Fingon, who actually attacks and kills the Teleri.

    The entire advance starts out as an attempt to stop the Teleri from killing the Fëanoreans, non-violently if possible. This turns out to not be possible when Irimë is killed.

    So, here's a part where it gets a bit dicey. Firstly, I've never seen any evidence of Galadriel using telepathy or mind-reading of any kind this early in the Silmarillion. There may be in later stories, but you tell me.

    Secondly, she can't grab or shout to Fingon or Fingolfin beccause they are too far ahead of her, as I've mentioned earlier.

    Thirdly, if we did give her the full suite of telepathic abilities that she has thousands of years later in LoTR, why does she not stop the whole thing? If we decide that the young Galadriel is already at the height of her power, then she would have to not be present to make it work.

    Ultimately, I was not amongst those who felt strongly that Galadriel must be present at the Kinslaying. But if she is there, there are constraints. She cannot kill anyone. Period. She cannot do anything that the Noldor would consider traitorous (such as turning on them). And she cannot even attempt to cut down one of the Teleri.

    That means that she must: do nothing (which people were against because Galadriel is a woman and they did not want to say that a woman would do such a thing), treat the wounded (which people did not like, because it suggests that doing so is "woman's work"), try unsuccessfully to talk down the combatants (Which I think would make her look foolish or naive. It is extremely difficult to break up an active fight between several people without grabbing them. To do so amongst hundreds or thousands is impossible.), to or initially move towards the fray, but desist before taking a swing at anyone.
     
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  14. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Active Member

    Nicholas, I do not dispute your intentions, but I'm expressing my great dismay with the words in the actual script itself, and BEGGING you all to please please change the words.
    Galadriel's explicitly unsheathed sword is a huge problem in the current script. If she is not swinging her sword and trying to kill them, she would not draw her sword in the first place, especially while joining in a charge led by Fingon, who canonically is killing people.

    If you folks didn't mean for Galadriel to be swinging her sword trying to kill Teleri, I beg you to please change the script to remove the passage that describes her charging with an unsheathed sword. To just mention in the script that she's not swinging and killing. I don't think that is too much to ask, if her trying to kill wasn't the writers' intention in the first place.


    I just reread Ósanwë-kenta. It's hard to summarize but I don't think telepathy would let her stop the battle, or even stop the charge of Fingolfin's people.

    All Elves have telepathy, though not all are equally talented. What is needed is urgency, authority, consanguinuity, or friendship and warmth of heart to both read minds and send thoughts, but one of these has to be strong for an Incarnate to successfully contact another, and most aren't in the habit of using it at all, except when noise or distance makes talking impossible. And even then Eldar (or at least, Noldor) have sign language and incredible eyesight for many such circumstances.

    I don't think you will find an explicit description of anyone using telepathy in the First Age, except when Feanor read Melkor's mind at Formenos, and Finrod read the Mortals' minds. Numerous stories that would warrant or urgently motivate telepathy don't mention it because Tolkien apparently hadn't made it up until after he stopped writing most First Age narrative, or because the stories don't include much detail. Maedhros does not use it on Thangorodrim, nobody uses it in battles that would really benefit from telepathy. Curufin has no clue Eol is prepared to murder wife and child when he blithely tells Eol precisely where to find them. That doesn't mean Elves couldn't use it until the Third Age, only that it wasn't mentioned. Telepathy is amazing if you can use it tactically during battle, but probably isn't reliable enough for that, and wouldn't show up in a story with little detail. Mind-reading can be blocked by anyone at all no matter how powerful the reader, except while speaking out loud. Even Finrod can't quite turn it into a universal translator. The only thing that really stands out is its total lack of range limits, to the extent it can cross whole continents, and that might just contradict the stories. Still, without an enhancement like a palantir, most people can't do much with it.

    IMO Galadriel's use in the LotR is remarkable in her ability to contact total strangers while calm, but not in her having telepathy in the first place. I doubt it was the limit of her abilities in the Third Age. However, Galadriel is described, already during the Rebellion, in terms that both imply strong telepathy and describe personality traits which would give her strong telepathy. Her brother Finrod is explicitly the greatest telepath of all the Children. Her “remarkable gift of insight into the minds of others” and her very strong and lifelong suspicion of Fëanor are more than enough for her to think that the fight was started by Fëanor instead of the Teleri. Really, I think the burden of proof is entirely on those who say she would assume that Fëanor, whom she apparently hates, who swore to murder people, is 100% innocent and the Teleri started it.

    In the First Age she should have no problem in attempting to contact her own cousin Fingon in the urgency of battle. There is no need for Galadriel to succeed. It's hard to contact a mind that is otherwise engaged in other thoughts. On the other hand, if the receiver's emotions have some resemblance to the sender's emotions and the sender's are urgent this makes it easier to receive rather than harder.

    "Only great minds can converse with more than one other at the same time; several may confer, but then at one time only one is imparting, while the others receive". (Osanwe-kenta, VT #39 p. 30). This could refer to the sort of converse described near the end of the Lord of the Rings between the Three Keepers, but the context here suggests to me that "great minds" means Ainur. I would not think young Galadriel can contact more than one at once, let alone a whole troop.

    So telepathy does not let her stop the battle. It might get one relative or close friend to stop, if she can reach them and persuade them.

    Even if Galadriel assumes for no good reason that Feanor is innocent and peaceful, and she's incapable of telepathy yet, she can still try to physically or verbally stop people who are closer than Fingon.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  15. Haakon

    Haakon Administrator Staff Member

    I really don't think Galadriel believes that Fëanor is innocent and peaceful, and I don't think anyone is implying that. It's an open question though what Galadriel assumes exactly (and perhaps we don't have to go into that). Suddenly, friends are killing each other. This is potentially extremely shocking, and people, even great Noldor elves, should react irrationally to it. As I've tried to say earlier, the situation should be very unclear, chaotic and stressing. People will not immidiately know how to act, what to say or how to assess the situation. And for every person who acts irrationally, there will be more chaos.

    I think this definitely could be included (and I would love it).
     
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  16. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Just going to jump in right now to point out that I did alter the outline to explicitly state that Galadriel does not engage in combat when Haakon pointed out the ambiguity. One must remove a sword belt before jumping in the water, so I don't think it makes sense to remove the reference to Galadriel's doing so. Please let me know if you find the outline in its current state to be ambiguous. (Though it could really use some polishing and expansion before being submitted, anyway. This is just a rough draft.)

    As for telepathy, we did not really explicitly introduce that ability among elves in Season 2. We did include the palantiri. So it would probably be confusing to introduce a new elven trait or ability in the middle of this battle, though the urgency and horror of everything might make sense as an impetus for that. It is possible that we intend to expand Galadriel's abilities under her tutelage with Melian. Perhaps we could show a hint of them here? Perhaps that helps her find Earwen? (If we go with the 'Earwen lives' version.)
     
  17. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Active Member

    I am very grateful and relieved that you changed it. Thank you. It no longer shows her trying to kill people. It is somewhat unclear still ("drops her sword" means her sword was unsheathed, whereas "drops her sword-belt" would show she had not drawn it yet. It doesn't yet say that she first at that moment learned her mother was present.

    She could be near the base of the Arch hanging back from the advance, or she could be breaking out of Fingolfin's advance and running back down -- it's currently unclear which, and from Nicholas' more detailed description of the advance I don't know if there'd be room for her to run back down, she'd have to run between or around the other Noldor in her path. To be able to reach the base of the Arch and dive, it may be impossible for her to go up the Arch, in which case she would have stayed back, realizing this was all wrong. How wide is the arch?

    Ultimately it is still also unclear what Fingolfin et al are doing on the way up the arch, and still implied they draw and start swinging from the start -- adding more details would be necessary to establish what Haakon says Corey agreed to with Fingolfin's group not immediately drawing swords and killing. It could be said they are confused and have no idea what they are doing, and don't think it through even to the point of realizing they can't go with bare hands into a hail of arrows. They don't all necessarily even have their shields or swords or armor with them, since they presumably didn't plan or expect to join a battle.


    Given telepathy wasn't mentioned in Season 2, I'm not sure how to introduce it. I like the idea of urgency and horror lending strength (as it would) to her attempt to get somebody to stop, though I think it unlikely she'd succeed -- whether or not she contacts somebody, who will listen? However you could keep Turgon's hands clean (it's somewhat weird for him be involved) by her persuading him to stop, while Fingolfin and Fingon keep on going. Her finding Earwen by reaching out with her thought is also a good idea (I would like Earwen to live). Getting more skill under Melian's tutelage would make sense later.
     
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