S03E02 Script Discussion

Feanor would be able to speak Telerin... he was a great linguist, the founder of the Lambengolmor, and learned every other language he could -- even (some) Valarin.

Haerangil said:
Wasn't it that galadriel got pardon after the war of wrath but she was too proud to return?
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Tolkien changed his mind about this (surprise, right?). Circa 1958 it was ambiguous -- she was too proud/unrepentant to "seek" pardon. In 1967 he said she was banned from return for being a rebel leader. In 1968 and again in 1971 he said that everybody who fought against Morgoth was pardoned for rebelling, but she refused pardon out of stubborn pride. It seems to be to be implied that the Valar then rescinded the pardon and she had to earn it back by refusing the Ring.
 
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And I just realized that the thumbnail is wrong on the first one. I'll get on it.

Faelivrin said:
Feanor would be able to speak Telerin... he was a great linguist, the founder of the Lambengolmor, and learned every other language he could -- even (some) Valarin.
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I'm sorry, I'm not sure where this is coming from. Did anyone say that Feanor wouldn't be able to talk to the Teleri?
 
The outline is saying that Fëanor fails to communicate with the Teleri. His arguments don't move them.

There is no implication of a language barrier, simply a cultural difference.

The Teleri are able to 'speak Fëanor's language' by speaking of their ships in the same manner he spoke of the silmarils. That was not an allusion to actual language, but a figure of speech.

(As far as I know, the entire scene will be in English.)
 
I always tjought of telerin and noldorin as two dialects of pretty much the same language... I mean, in german a bavarian and a saxon might have some trouble understanding each other... But with elves, who would remember language as it was thousands of years ago that won 't be a problem..
 
It's a valid debate whether Telerin and Quenya are separate languages or dialects of one language.

But oddly, Tolkien wrote that Elves don't actually remember an earlier form of their mother-tongue they themselves spoke centuries or millennia ago. When they remember things they or others said, they automatically translate it into the current form of the language.
 
:-o

Really? How odd... But interesting!

I think there is a bit confusion about the term telerin..,

At first telerin is a strain or language- family among the elves... It was the dialect of primitive quendian qhich the teleri spoke on the great wandering and from which sindarin, nandorin and falmarin- quenya emerged.

Second it is falmarin- quenya, which is a dialect of quenya, but a very archaic one, one less influenced by aulean or valarin than the valinorean dialects, noldorin and vanyarin. Falmarin is still more traditional or conservative,more close to the old telerin - orimitive quendian if the great wandering era.

But i don't think dialect distinctions really do matter much for us. They wouödn't play a too large role in aman. Once the noldor come to beleriand they become important, as sindarin is a much younger languahe than noldrian- quenya and so far removed it does count as a separate language. Same posdibly for nandorin...

So in the beletiand part of tje story it should become clear that sindar, nandor and noldor do speak three different languages...
 
I have been trying and trying to think of a reason to separate Fingon and Turgon from one another during the Kinslaying. So far, every idea I had sounded way too artificial, so if Fingon was going to follow his father, why wouldn't Turgon come along, too?

But I finally had an idea that might work. It's hokey, but at least could be plausible (maybe).

We were going to have a running gag of Aredhel losing her way all the time. It's just an amusingly bad sense of direction...until Season 4 and Eöl.

So, what if Aredhel manages to get lost on the way from Tirion to Alqualondë? Perhaps she went ahead to try to meet up with the Fëanorean host and then got lost, or turned aside for some reason, or tried to take a short cut....whatever, she's gone. So, when Fingolfin finds the abandoned Fëanorean camp and hears that Aredhel is missing, he could send Turgon to find his sister. That way, he'd have something to do rather than just randomly staying back.

Is that too hokey?

An alternative would be to have him have some reason to want to stay with Elenwë and Idril, but that will really look like he's staying back with the women and children, which...might not be the vibe we were going for with him?

Anyway, I'm open to other suggestions of what Turgon can be up to during the Kinslaying. He can participate with Fingon, or...what else can he be doing?


Oh, and just a reminder that we are going for a published-LotR version of Galadriel here. The aftermath of the War of Wrath is a long way off (Season 9?), so we will likely be making the decision about how to handle the rebellious Noldor at that time. It is quite likely that Galadriel and Celeborn will leave Doriath and cross the mountains well before that time, so the nuance of whether she 'refused' pardon or 'refused to seek' pardon may be moot - she just wasn't around to get pardoned in person because she wasn't even in Beleriand at the time, and only heard Eonwë's pronouncement long after the fact. But, that certainly hasn't been decided yet.
 
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I always thought Fingon was ahead of Fingolfin with the van of the host and got there first, but you have Fingolfin leading instead so I don't know. Turgon isn't reluctant to go on with the rebellion. However he may be a ways behind Fingolfin.
 
It is important for this story that Fingolfin be the one to decide to go to the harbor to 'rescue' the Noldor. While Fingon can be eager and with him, he can't really be the one to make the explicit decision to rush into the battle. In a chaotic situation, might it happen that way? Sure. But we need Fingolfin to make the choice as a leader, not a follower. Fingolfin will feel responsible for leading his people into the Kinslaying after the fact, causing him to break his sword. Fingon will (eventually) come to feel guilty for his own actions, but he's not going to take on the collective guilt of the Noldor. We'll have plenty of opportunities to explore his role as a leader, and he clearly does act independently (such as when he rescues Maedhros).

Right now, the story is mostly about Fëanor and Fingolfin being in very uneasy alliance. We are building up to Fëanor's betrayal of Fingolfin when he burns the ships. The friendship of Maedhros and Fingon was established in Season 2 (when they were still young), and we heard both of them speaking with one another about the family drama in an attempt to see how to solve it all. But by the time Fëanor was banished from Tirion, they were not being fully open with each other (especially on Maedhros' part), and we did not really show their friendship much after that. So their story is certainly part of all of this, but right now they're mostly keeping separate from one another. Not exactly estranged, but not exactly working together as a team, either. So, Fingon's desire to rush into the Kinslaying because of Maedhros is there as a motivation, but it's not the most important aspect of all of this - it's just a personal thing on the side.

And while Turgon could just be 'at the back of the line' and therefore not realize there is any decision to be made, that does feel like we're just forgetting about him, rather than actually differentiating him from his father and brother. And if we're not going to show any difference anyway...he might as well be with them. There's a lot of different ways to do this, and I don't mind variations, but if we're going to make explicit choices, I like for there to be a story behind them. So, if he's at the back of the line, the reason would have to be something along the lines of looking back at Tirion, or Idril being too little to keep up, or Elenwë in tears after they pass through the Kalakirya because she's never been that far from Taniquetal before, or....*something*. If we have a reason for it, it can fit into the story. But just not showing him because he stopped to tie his shoes and missed the Kinslaying wouldn't really work (not that anyone has suggested that, but just...we need a reason/story).
 
It's a bit weird that Tolkien has Fingon in the van and Turgon ... not. They're both "bold and fiery of heart" and gung-ho about the rebellion, while Fingolfin is determined but not quite so eager to go on Adventures! At least, that's how I see their attitude. One serious possibility is the difference in their followers. The Noldor had not only broken into factions, but apparently there were lords or families attached to specific princes. At least, Glorfindel is implied to have been attached personally to Turgon, not just to Fingolfin's host or house in general.

So it's very possible that the folks most attached to Turgon are also among the most reluctant (other than those attached to Finarfin and his children) and are kind of dragging their heels. Turgon is urging them along but will not just ride ahead and leave them behind, because he's not a jerk like that. He wants to get going! and they sort of want to slow down.
 
For me, the main motivation to keep Turgon *out* of the Kinslaying is his later close relationship with Ulmo. I think it would be difficult to explain why Ulmo would reach out to him in particular among the Noldor if he were guilty of spilling Teleri blood. I do like the idea that he is not himself reluctant to go, but stuck 'herding' the more reluctant Noldor, who will eventually become some of the people of Gondolin.
 
Absolutely. Ulmo picks out princes who did not spill Telerin blood, nor (I think) even draw sword or raise a hand against them (though he also gives no particular help to Angrod or Aegnor). Thorondor hangs out with Turgon* partly for the same reason (but partly because the Echoriad are in a convenient northerly place and not a Hell-volcano). That said, I do think of Turgon as a little less hot-blooded than Fingon.


* I just realized that this is a bit confusing. When Hurin and Huor say they were carried off by Eagles, people think that points towards Turgon and Gondolin. Yet at the same time, the Eagles clearly live in the mountains beside Dorthonion, yet nearly everybody thinks Gondolin is somewhere in the south. Am I missing something?
 
Of course, Thorondor also helps Fingon save Maedhros, and they are both very clearly guilty of kinslaying. But I see your point!

The 'no one can find Gondolin' story gets very thin when you think about what powers of sight are at Morgoth's disposal. He sits Húrin down on a chair and commands him to watch his kin from afar. Uh....so....what's stopping Morgoth from watching Turgon, again?
 
With the invisibility of gondolin i guess we have to think of higher powers at work. Maybe ulmo or thorondor had worked out some cloaking shield device analogous to melians girdle, but different from it.
 
Right, Ulmo's power extended up the Dry River and hid the vale, just as Melian hid Doriath. Of course Morgoth knew where Doriath was, but could not pierce the Girdle with his senses.
 
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