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S03E04 Script Discussion
- Thread starter Nicholas Palazzo
- Start date
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
So, Gamil Zirak is the master of Telchar, but the hosts want to have Telchar now, and Gamil Zirak later (I'm not the right person to ask why). Gamil Brog is a character we created to give a nod to Gamil Zirak as master of Telchar.
Brian Dimmick
Active Member
I think this may be the best direction to go in addressing this—making the Sindar able to understand the elf language the dwarves are speaking, rather than having the dwarves initially understand Sindarin. Some contact with the green elves or other Avari by at least a few of the Sindar (if not Thingol or Even Mablung themselves) doesn’t seem that unlikely during the last thousand years. We could even have a few elves wander over the Blue Mountains at some point and settle with the Sindar, adopting Sindarin as their language but still remembering their old language. If one of them were with Mablung’s party, eh could translate. However we handle that, having the dwarves speak what the Sindar view as an archaic and “uncultured” version of elvish could contribute to the elves taking a dim view of them.
I am a bit uneasy with how we have sketched out the initial meeting between the elves and the dwarves, and particularly with having Mablung assert that Thingol rules all of Beleriand and the dwarves must get permission from him to be there. This makes Thingol sound like a human king ruling a well-established realm, and I don’t know if we want to have Thingol thinking that way this early. Elves should look at land ownership differently than men, and part of Thingol’s fall over the seasons is the way he becomes prideful and possessive. At this stage he is just the leader of his people, who wander over a good chunk of Beleriand, and he doesn’t yet have reason to fence or protect his borders.
The reason for Thingol to take notice of the dwarves and want to meet them isn’t their presence in Beleriand, but what they are doing—building roads, digging up stone and dragging it around, cutting down trees. These are not things the Sindar do, and would not sit well with them. (I think in the initial scene in act 1 where the elves observe the dwarves, we can show dwarves doing some of the same kinds of things that orcs were doing at the end of episode 3, like cutting down trees, although obviously without senseless violence and for less sinister reasons.) But rather than attacking them, Thingol wisely decides to try to come to an understanding with them. This also makes the later meeting between Thingol and Azaghal feel less like an exercise in formal diplomacy (which neither side has had any reason to develop at this stage) and more like a genuine, if quite awkward, effort to understand each other and head off future conflict.
I'd also like to find some other way to have the dwarves learn of the runes--writing down a song just doesn't feel like something Luthien would do. Maybe Daeron could be trying to come up with runic representations of the names of the dwarves to write an account of the meeting, and Azaghal notices and asks him what he is doing?
Yes, this and what Haerangil suggested would be OK to me.
Especially with this idea. This really has to have happened at some point, because otherwise how would the Green Elves and Ents hear about Beleriand and how awesome it is, and decide to move there?
I like these suggestions a lot, too.
I wouldn't say that Sindar don't cut down trees ever, the way Green Elves Never Ever Ever cut down trees. Rather, they select trees that can be coppiced and will grow back afterwards, and they don't clear-cut. The Dwarves are just... cutting every tree they see in an entire stand, methodically and systematically destroying a grove, and obliviously stomping on the smaller plants while going about their work. And there are fires somewhere because of the forges. I love the idea that their behavior looks reminiscent of the Orcs, and the Sindar are very uneasy not merely because of cutting down trees, but because of the clear-cutting, flower-trampling, and other apparent resemblances to the way Orcs do things.
And when the Elves start talking to them, it quickly becomes obvious that the Dwarves had no idea trees could be coppiced, or that it was harmful to clear-cut a whole grove. And they never noticed the flowers they were trampling. They just... aren't designed to notice or understand these things on their own. Fortunately, they can learn. In the Narn, the Petty-Dwarves understand how to sustainably harvest wild food without wiping out the food plant species.
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Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I don't think that there is much textual evidence to suggest that Thingol is not as possessive about Beleriand when he meets the dwarves as he is when he meets the Noldor, but keep in mind that in the compressed Beleriand timeline, we are a few years away from the arrival of the Noldor, at best. Setting up Thingol's attitude about Beleriand now seems to make perfect sense to me.
As to the interpretation of initial Sindar/Dwarf contact, I wonder if you have considered how the two peoples would view each other initially. To the Sindar, the dwarves are ugly and oblivious to the natural beauty of the world. To the dwarves, the Sindar are savages who build nothing and have nothing to offer them.
The dwarves may be curious, but they are also practical. The diplomatic action in the episode is designed to give Thingol a way to keep the dwarves from just continuing to build the road. After all, there is not much the elves could do to stop them. Without the elves offering them some practical benefit, the dwarves would do just that. After all, they see no evidence that the elves have claim to this land.
As to the establishment of "formal diplomacy," what we have here seems more akin to a peaceful first contact between Europeans and the indigenous peoples of the Americas.
I think this has to do with a loss in translation. The writing down of the song is done by Daeron. Luthien is just the one presenting it.
Brian Dimmick
Active Member
I don't read the text as saying that Thingol was particularly possessive of Beleriand as a whole even when the Noldor arrived. He does call himself Lord of Beleriand, but (as Maedhros says) he freely gives away the lands where his people do not already live. He makes no attempt to actually assert control over the Noldor in their lands, but just fences Doriath against most of them (of course, there may not have been much he could have done had he wished to contest with the Noldor, but still...) And the situation does change between the first meeting with the dwarves and the arrival of the Noldor. The war with Morgoth begins, and the girdle is raised, which serves to define his realm. He also sees the Noldor as potential rivals in a way that the dwarves are not (and this is to some extent the beginnings of the Doom of Mandos playing out).
There is a difference between protecting your people and trying to control the lands where they live and wander, and asserting a claim to those (rather large) parts of Beleriand where his people don't live. I just don't think Sindar would have the same attitudes to control of land from the beginning as human societies (at least western ones) do. Once the two groups meet and negotiate, it may not make much difference, and Thingol might choose to assert a claim to Beleriand as a negotiating tactic given his weaponry deficit.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
In the Published Silmarillion, Sindar do live in the lands in which the Noldor settle, and Thingol never ceded lordship of those lands, he merely allows the Noldor to live there (mostly since there is absolutely nothing he can do about it). This is a very similar situation. Thingol knows he cannot prevent the dwarves from building all over Beleriand, but he feels compelled to prevent them from doing so.
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
And I have yet to see any textual evidence that Thingol's claim to Beleriand was a new development when the Noldor arrive.
The goal of this episode is to show that the Dwarves and the Sindar have very different world views, and not a lot of mutual respect, but at the end of the day, they are friends, not enemies.
There are plenty of science fiction TV shows which show variations of 'first contact' - whether that be on alien worlds or on a post-apocalyptic Earth or some other variant on an isolated group of people meeting outsiders. The vast majority of these initial interactions are violent. Groups are often portrayed as fighting over resources, and definitely doing 'shoot first' diplomacy.
This. ..is not that. And we have to show HOW and WHY that outcome was avoided. What makes first contact between Sindar and dwarves so different from the first encounter with orcs in the prior episode?
We know that the Dwarves are better armed than the elves, and more experienced with battle. So, they have a natural advantage. We also know that they are prepared to dismiss the elves as savages, and discount any claim that the Sindar may make to lands that they haven't occupied nor developed.
Meanwhile, we know that the elves would disapprove of any road building or clearcutting as destructive. We ALSO know, from the map, that the dwarf road does not extend past Sarn Ford. So, the elves will be successful in their cease-and-desist order, despite having no military leverage nor a recognized prior claim to the land.
So...interesting stuff to work out, and we have to focus on details that address these issues so that the audience can buy the alliance while still getting an accurate intro to the dwarves.
There are plenty of science fiction TV shows which show variations of 'first contact' - whether that be on alien worlds or on a post-apocalyptic Earth or some other variant on an isolated group of people meeting outsiders. The vast majority of these initial interactions are violent. Groups are often portrayed as fighting over resources, and definitely doing 'shoot first' diplomacy.
This. ..is not that. And we have to show HOW and WHY that outcome was avoided. What makes first contact between Sindar and dwarves so different from the first encounter with orcs in the prior episode?
We know that the Dwarves are better armed than the elves, and more experienced with battle. So, they have a natural advantage. We also know that they are prepared to dismiss the elves as savages, and discount any claim that the Sindar may make to lands that they haven't occupied nor developed.
Meanwhile, we know that the elves would disapprove of any road building or clearcutting as destructive. We ALSO know, from the map, that the dwarf road does not extend past Sarn Ford. So, the elves will be successful in their cease-and-desist order, despite having no military leverage nor a recognized prior claim to the land.
So...interesting stuff to work out, and we have to focus on details that address these issues so that the audience can buy the alliance while still getting an accurate intro to the dwarves.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
doesn't make any sense to me.
One possibility is that the Elves fear these creatures may be like the Orcs, but aren't entirely sure, and they aren't yet used to the idea of being at war with Orcs. They adopt a somewhat threatening stance... and the Dwarves, seeing savages armed with rather pathetic stone weapons, don't take the threat seriously. But they recognize these savages as Elves and know they are regular people, not Orcs. Norn or someone else who can speak a little Nandorin is there, and says something in Nandorin, which the Elves immediately recognize as a Lindarin-Eldarin tongue akin to Sindarin. At that point the Elves aren't inclined to attack.
I think an important factor is that Elves and Dwarves are not fallen, as Mortals are. Elves, especially, are not inclined to attack unless they're certain something is hostile, and even then they've only just begun to experience actual, deliberate warfare with other speaking creatures as a thing. Recall the Orc attack in Lothlorien -- the Silvan-elves try to kill every Orc, but don't attack Gollum because they don't know what he is or whether he's evil.
I think an important factor is that Elves and Dwarves are not fallen, as Mortals are. Elves, especially, are not inclined to attack unless they're certain something is hostile, and even then they've only just begun to experience actual, deliberate warfare with other speaking creatures as a thing. Recall the Orc attack in Lothlorien -- the Silvan-elves try to kill every Orc, but don't attack Gollum because they don't know what he is or whether he's evil.
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Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
How can I help? 🙂
Haerangil, there are only so many named dwarves in the published Silmarillion. The Hosts decided to split them up and give them the prominent dwarf roles throughout the first age. The maker of the Nauglamir is not named, and neither is the dwarf who remakes it for Thingol. The Hosts decided to make those two the same person, and to name him Zirak (later Gamil Zirak). In this portion of the story (pre1st age Beleriand), we have Telchar and Azaghal...and that's it. All other dwarf characters are original characters we've invented. I know that you in particular were sad to lose Gamil Zirak as Telchar's master, so we found a way to incorporate Telchar's master as a minor character with a similar name - introducing the audience to the honorific 'gamil'. The Hosts haven't seen this yet, and may veto it, but if you don't like it, now is the time to change it. So, let us know what you would like to do.
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
okay I see... but it´s weird... it would make more sense to name the elder dwarf (Gamil) zirak instead of Telchar and the Nauglamir´s maker Telchar or Gamil Brôg-in my opinion...
what about Fangluin, Naugladur and Bodruith... did the Execs chose not to use these Book of Lost tales Names?
what about Fangluin, Naugladur and Bodruith... did the Execs chose not to use these Book of Lost tales Names?
We can use those names for extra dwarves if we like - they were just addressing how they wanted to use the handful of dwarves in the published Silmarillion. So...I think those are still okay, but they're not officially in the project (yet), either.
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Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
Wait, so you want a jeweler named Telchar? Isn't that a bigger problem, considering what Telchar is known for?
Haerangil
Well-Known Member
Idon't see the point... as Gamil Zirak is also known for metalsmithing rather than jewelling (the Nauglamir is Gems plus Gold...so there´s a lot of fine metalwork involved too, just as with the finely designed weapons and helmets).
Feanor also is both, jewelsmith and Metalsmith... so I guess a Dwarf who is possibly also a universal-genius as Feanor could do both.
Feanor also is both, jewelsmith and Metalsmith... so I guess a Dwarf who is possibly also a universal-genius as Feanor could do both.
We will be preserving Telchar making Angrist, Narsil, and the dragon-helm this way. So far (in Season 3), Telchar can only make Angrist as a young dwarf smith. She'll do her more impressive work later when she's older. We have her be responsible for arming the Sindar right now.
I'm watching the podcast about this episode and Corey adamantly wants NO bearded dwarf women at all ever no matter what, and lots of beardless dwarves. This is upsetting me quite a lot! It's making me so very angry! I am getting the impression Corey either never once read HoME 10-12, or forgot every word of them. (It's not specifically beards that are making me angry but just the constant, constant changes to everything Tolkien wrote.)
Did anyone manage to convince him to accept what Tolkien actually wrote? If not can we please please rebel about this out of respect for the author?
Did anyone manage to convince him to accept what Tolkien actually wrote? If not can we please please rebel about this out of respect for the author?
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It wasn't just Corey Olsen; you'll note that Trish Lambert had some things to say on that topic as well.
The reason is purely visual. They do not like the idea of bearded women, with the thought that they will come across as comical or ugly (or both). We did discuss costuming choices (face veils, masked helmets, etc) which could leave the question of whether or not female dwarves have beards an open one.
And while I am well aware that dwarf babies are born with beards in Tolkien's later writing, it's also true that the Appendices of LotR leave the question a bit more open and mysterious. The fact is that outsiders are mostly unaware of what dwarf women look like, and we should preserve this.
So far, the only female dwarf on screen will be Telchar. I'm fine with the voice being the only clue that she's female. She can be perpetually bundled up in ninja scarves or something. Eventually, we will no doubt visit Belegost or Nogrod and see the dwarves at home on their own. So, we will have to address it then.
The reason is purely visual. They do not like the idea of bearded women, with the thought that they will come across as comical or ugly (or both). We did discuss costuming choices (face veils, masked helmets, etc) which could leave the question of whether or not female dwarves have beards an open one.
And while I am well aware that dwarf babies are born with beards in Tolkien's later writing, it's also true that the Appendices of LotR leave the question a bit more open and mysterious. The fact is that outsiders are mostly unaware of what dwarf women look like, and we should preserve this.
So far, the only female dwarf on screen will be Telchar. I'm fine with the voice being the only clue that she's female. She can be perpetually bundled up in ninja scarves or something. Eventually, we will no doubt visit Belegost or Nogrod and see the dwarves at home on their own. So, we will have to address it then.