S03E08 Script Discussion

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Script notes so I can go to bed:
EDIT: adjusting format and adding details from Nick's notes to try to get all the outline in one place.


This episode will be subdivided into 3 long acts instead of the usual 4. This is not to become a regular occurrance.

Reminder: Last episode the host of Fingolfin discovered the ships had gone and we got their initial rections. This episode starts a few hours before that, and shows the departure from the Fëanorian perspective.
Círdan and Celeborn sailed north to scout, sent Galdor and Beleg with the Falathrim refugees south.
We inserted into last episode that Amrod had looted a palantír from Alqualondë, which he showed to Amros in Ep 7 Act III Scene 9 where the twins talk about their mother.


Season 3 Episode 8: The Burning of the Ships
Focus: Fëanorians
Protagonist(s): Maedhros and/or Amros
First appearance: N/A
Last appearance: Amrod

Summary: Fëanor and his sons abandon Fingolfin in Araman and burn the swan-ships. Fëanor’s betrayal causes Amrod’s death, and the first cracks appear in the loyalty he built around himself. Fingolfin resolves to continue north and east.
Theme: ??

Frame teaser - Estel (16) and Hamilcar (18-19) are travelling through the wintery forest. They come to a stream, lose the trail and argue over which direction to go in. It starts as a dispute about who should be the leader of their “expedition,” who knows more about tracking wolves (or wargs, they don't know which). They both have valid points, but it gets ugly and personal. Hamilcar attacks Estel’s newfound identity as one of the Dúnedain, says very disparaging things about his family. Estel is nothing and no one, without a place in the Dúnedain. Just a boy in Elvish clothes. Estel can't respond because he has no clue who he is, and was warned very strongly not to reveal his mother's name.


Act I
Scene 1.
Maedhros’ ship - Fingon + Maedhros discussion/argument on board, in secret. Fingon says Fëanor has gone mad and can’t be trusted, but Maedhros is not at all willing to badmouth Fëanor in front of Fingon. Fingon: “He will kill you all, one by one.” Maedhros comes across as cold to Fingon, and they part on rather poor terms.

Scene 2. Araman coast - Fingon, Turgon & Fingolfin: Immediately after Finarfin’s departure, Fingon returns from his meeting with Maedhros, warns Fingolfin that Fëanor is mad, and that even some of his sons know it, though they will not say as much.
[We can show some of the grumbling against Fëanor in Fingolfin’s host on shore, before Fëanor abandons them.]

Scene 3. Ships - Fëanor talks to Curufin, preparing to sail away. Fëanor establishes the signal to leave, tells Curufin to tell each of the ship captains, and to have them be ready to leave at a moment’s notice. Curufin guesses that they will leave without any of Fingolfin’s host, and Fëanor tells him to say nothing on that count, “for we know not whom we can trust”. “Of one thing, the Lord of Death speaks truth.”

Scene 4. Ships - West wind starts up, Fëanor signals the ships, they sail away (Fëanorian perspective). Fëanor says ERU is on his side and made the wind for his benefit.

Scene 5. West Beleriand - Círdan and Celeborn sail north up the coast, scouting, looking if there are scattered Falathrim to rescue. (The wind is out of the west.)


Act II
Scene 6.
Mouths of Sirion - Beleg and his remaining Iathrim rangers are put ashore at the delta, say goodbye to Galdor. The Falathrim refugees will hide out at Isle of Balar, Beleg will go tell Thingol what happened at the havens. (The wind is out of he west.)

Scene 7. Ships - Maedhros and Maglor talk. Maedhros still thinks they’re going to go back for Fingolfin’s host, thought one of Fingolfin’s sons had boarded one of the ships as agreed upon (last episode), but Maglor points out neither of them saw them board. Maedhros is honest with Maglor about not liking Fëanor’s decisions and behavior lately. Maglor may be privately uncomfortable with abandoning Fingolfin, but doesn't feel strongly about it and doesn't have the guts to challenge or disobey Fëanor.

Scene 8. Araman coast - Fingolfin gathers a council to discuss what might have happened and what to do (Galadriel isn't invited, apparently):
  • Angrod: I wish I could get vengeance!
  • Finrod: “Do you truly want to start another Kinslaying?”
  • Fingolfin: “No, I swore I would not raise blade against kin again.”
  • Aredhel: things might not be as bad as they look, surely they would not abandon us
  • Turgon: wait and see, Fëanor can hardly be so mad as to abandon the majority of the Noldorin fighters
  • Fingon: "I know Maedhros, and I talked to him. I do not think they are coming back for us."
Scene 9. Ships - Fëanorians are incompetent sailors. Amrod has broken his mast by refusing to furl the swan-wings, causing the ship to pitch prow-ward and take on water. Amros come up, evacuates the foundering ship, getting both twins onto one ship. Amrod's ship takes on water and sinks. Fëanorians care about each other, but not at all for the ships. Amros mocks Amrod playfully for breaking his ship, but Amrod is very disheartened

Scene 10. Amros’ ship - Twins converse. When in private, Amros apologizes for teasing Amrod, and insists it is alright that they lost the ship. Amrod tells him that he isn’t upset about losing the ship, butbecause he can no longer look back to see his mother: the palantír was lost with the ship. They discuss their situation. They don’t really *like* abandoning Fingolfin, but mostly are dissatisfied by Fëanor's behavior and leadership and miss their mother. But they have different ideas about what to do. Amrod wants to go back to Valinor and Nerdanel, permanently. Amros is committed to revenge on Morgoth, and doesn’t want his twin to break the Oath and go to the Everlasting Darkness. Amrod seems to agree and be convinced not to go back.

Scene 11. West Beleriand - Beleg and the other Iathrim travel across Beleriand; they find the body of an elf who was eaten alive by Tevildo’s demon-lions, which are capturing and torturing Elves trying to find where the Sindar disappeared to. Beleg & co. can tell the victim was alive because of all the blood on the wounds. They get chased by the cats, Beleg shoots one but that doesn’t kill it (the cats are embodied demons, the cave lion equivalent of Gaurhoth, not easily killed).
One way to set up the existence of the Petty Dwarves in this Season would be that when Beleg is making his journey from Sirion to Menegroth and finds the remains of an elf killed by Tevildo, we could have an allusion to inhabitants of the highlands. Either the elves can intentionally avoid the area, or they can pass by some clearly man-made structure that is designed as a 'keep out' message. So, there will be no petty dwarves on screen, but some sort of creepy vibe that the elves find distasteful might make the audience curious about who might live there.
Scene 12. Ships - Fëanor and Curufin sight land, pass Ened island at the mouth of Drengist, converse on the ship. Mostly Fëanor telling and Curufin listening. We can’t trust the others. Many will lose heart. Both already know they’re abandoning Fingolfin, so it isn’t made explicit to the audience – hints but no giveaway.

Scene 13a. Zoomed out shot of ships sailing up Drengist

Scene 13b. Fëanorians land at Losgar. Fëanor looks epic setting foot upon Middle Earth for the first time. Montage of disembarking Elves and herds of horses + cattle, boxes of stuff, setting up camp. Amrod says something to Maedhros that is actually very subtly a goodbye, but not obviously. He doesn’t want to leave alone and knows Amros won’t come, is feeling out if Maedhros would like to come but doesn’t dare mention his plans out loud. Maedhros is too busy with unloading and distracted by (ironically similar) thoughts to talk about this. Fëanor plants his banners in camp. Amrod is starting to haul anchor from the hold of Amros’ ship. Show that dry grain storage and casks marked “miruvor” are on that ship.

Scene 14. Drengist - Círdan and Celeborn land on Ened island in Firth of Drengist and set up a temporary camp. Cirdan sets up a watch on the east to keep an eye out for any enemy activity.


Act III
Scene 15a.
Losgar - Maedhros and Fëanor argue, in public. Maedhros isn’t naive to Fëanor’s attitude towards Fingolfin, but hopes he has enough sway to get Fëanor to go along with what he wants. Fury, crazy lunatic laughter, “Let the ships burn! I will not allow any faint-hearts or traitors to abandon me or go back to succor Fingolfin and his people.” Maedhros verbally resists the idea of burning the ships, but Fëanor is unswayed.

Scene 15b. Losgar - Burning the ships. They use fire arrows, maybe torches. Accelerant: alcohol? pitch? magic?? (you can’t easily set even a human ship on fire). Maedhros stands aside. Amros runs around looking for Amrod; chaos. Something burning (sails?) falls onto hold door that traps Amrod onboard, but we don’t see Amrod on screen again.

Scene 15c. brief shots: Círdan sees the fire from an island across the Firth, and feels something is wrong. Gothmog sees it from the mountains above with a smile.

Scene 16. Araman coast - Turgon, standing on shore awake, has a vision of ships burning: a dream-sequence obscured by smoke. Eagle soaring over Encircling Mountains, Eagle’s eye view of ships on fire, smoke and a ship on fire but down to embers drifting to shore (seen from the side), it’s empty except a burnt corpse inside with a Fëanorian crest.

Scene 17. Losgar - Amrod screaming, echoes (it’s Lammoth). Everyone is surprised and shaken, shot of Fëanor upset but quickly hiding it. Initial reactions of Fëanor and brothers: Amros knows instantly what happened, tries to rush into water, but the ship is burning too much to do anything now, and others restrain him before he gets hurt. Fëanor shows no remorse nor guilt, rationalizes and blames Amrod: he brought his own death upon himself by breaking the Oath. One son says bitterly that it’s better he died now before he broke the Oath and damned himself to the Void. Amros is furious and shouts tearfully at Fëanor “Fell and fey are you become.” Fëanor is hiding his shock, and clearly angry. Amros storms off and Curufin (and perhaps Caranthir) tries to restrain him, Maedhros defends him. Fëanor is in too much shock and grief to say anything else, or punish Amros or Maedhros for their disobedience (yet).
(Fëanor probably did not know Amrod was planning to defect, and certainly didn't know he was on the ship.)

Scene 18. Araman coast - Turgon finishes telling Fingolfin’s council of his vision. The positions are restated more vehemently this time, though Fingon remains silent, his voice now replaced with that of Turgon. Fingolfin makes his final decision: We will go on to Middle-earth, not back to Valinor.

Scene 19. Losgar - Fëanorians leave the shore (gradual shots fading into each other, time passing shown through fires gradually dying down, in each successive scene the camp is taken down and people disappear from shore. Amros the last person standing on the shore alone.)

Scene 20. Losgar - Círdan and Celeborn find the ships, now mostly just smoking but with enough left of their frames to hint how beautiful they were. (tragic music, Dances With Wolves-skinned-bison-style scene)
  • Celeborn: “Why?”
  • Círdan: “Only the enemy would do such a thing.”
Scene 21. East Beleriand - Very short scene or Boldog’s Orcs burning trees and landscape at random while moving south.


Frame tag - Estel has had enough and ditches Hamilcar while he’s asleep.


General notes:
Lighting on the ships and communication between them is by blue Feanorian lamps.



Next Episode:
Círdan and Celeborn talk about the burnt ships. Círdan knows they came from Olwë's people.
Fingolfin declares himself King of the Noldor. Decision to cross Helkaraxë.
First Battle finishes, Denethor dies, Dwarves are late. Elves & Ents vs. Orcs
Further splintering between Fëanor and some of his sons, and between the sons. Emotional fallout of Amrod's death. Celegorm explores, can converse with Huan while hunting (but no subtitles).


My question is:
How and why does Amrod's ship sink? Telerian ships don't sink even when filled with water. The Feanorians evacuate because they don't know this, but if they purposely scuttle the ship Amrod will surely get the palantir out first.
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
My question is:
How and why does Amrod's ship sink? Telerian ships don't sink even when filled with water. The Feanorians evacuate because they don't know this, but if they purposely scuttle the ship Amrod will surely get the palantir out first.
I don't think they are purposely scuttling the ship. The ship capsizes and the Feanorians abandon it. We can even show a shot of the palantir resting on the sea floor. Perhaps with an image of Nerdanel in it.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
In other news, my notes...


Feanorian protagonist: Maedhros > Amrod

Fingolfin’s Host protagonist: Turgon > Fingon


Teaser


Hamilcar and Estel are travelling through the wintry forest, tracking wolves. They come to a stream, lose the trail and argue over which direction to go in. They both have valid points, but eventually, Hamilcar let’s loose what he has been feeling the whole time, that Estel is nothing and no one, without a place in the Dunedain. Just a boy in Elvish clothes.


Act 1


FinGON v Maedhros: FinGON attempts to convince Maedhros that his father is not to be trusted, while Maedhros, though he has some private misgivings which he does not articulate, is very clear that he will follow his father to the end. Fingon: “He will kill you all, one by one.”


Feanor & Curufin: Feanor establishes the signal to leave, tells Curufin to tell each of the ship captains, and to have them be ready to leave at a moment’s notice. Curufin guesses that they will leave without any of Fingolfin’s host, and Feanor tells him to say nothing on that count, “for we know not whom we can trust”. “Of one thing, the Lord of Death speaks truth.”


Fingon, Turgon & Fingolfin: Immediately after Finarfin’s departure, Fingon returns from his meeting with Maedhros, warns Fingolfin that Feanor is mad, and that even some of his sons know it, though they will not say as much.


Feanorian departure and tail wind. Feanor thinks the wind indicates a favorable destiny. Eru?


Cirdan and Celeborn sailing up the coast, seeking any sign of elves who might be fleeing from Sauron’s army.


Beleg and his few remaining rangers disembarking at the mouths of Sirion. He bids farewell to Galdor, and Galdor establishes where the Falathrim refugees will be. Beleg sets off inland.

(In both of these scenes, the wind should be out of the west, even if the characters do not call attention to this.)


Act 2


Maedhros & Maglor they discuss dad and his erratic behavior. Maglor seems less confident than Maedhros that any of Fingolfin’s host is aboard any of the ships. Maedhros expresses his private fears to Maglor, but it is very clear that Maedhros would be alone in opposition of their father.


Reaction to Feanorian Departure by Fingolfin’s host: Fingolfin consults with his and Finarfin’s children, Angrod opens (very anti-Feanorean), Finrod (do you really want to start another kinslaying), Turgon is practical, suggesting that Feanor can hardly be so mad as to reject the majority of the Noldorin fighters, and Aredhel says that the sons of Feanor would surely not let him abandon them. They both advocate for “wait and see”, Fingon insists they are on their own.


Fun on ships: Amrod has broken his mast by refusing to furl the wings. Amras rescues him and his crew before the ship capsizes. Amras mocks Amrod playfully, but Amrod is nearly-inconsolable. When in private, Amras apologizes for teasing him, and insists it is alright that they lost the ship. Amrod tells him that he isn’t upset about losing the ship, but that he lost the palantir. Amrod and Amras discuss the possibility of returning, the consequences of the oath. Amras’ ship is laden with grain and barrels marked “Miruvor” in Tengwar.


Beleg and his guys come across remains of a tortured and half-devoured elf, then get chased by Tevildo’s cats in the forest. Beleg is appropriately awesome.


Feanor and Curufin, land is sighted, we can’t trust the others. Many will lose heart.


Transition to landing scene and unloading. Feanor looks epic setting foot upon Middle Earth for the first time. Amrod tries to say goodbye to Maedhros, but doesn’t do so overtly, as he is feeling Maedhros out to recruit him to go back. Maedhros is too busy doing work to get it and Amrod gives up on him, sneaking back onto Amras’ ship.


Cirdan and Celeborn land on an island in the Firth of Drengist and set up a temporary camp. Cirdan sets up a watch on the east to keep an eye out for any enemy activity.


Act 3


Ship Burning: Maedhros suggests going back to get Fingolfin’s army. Feanor reacts very poorly. Maedhros verbally resists the idea of burning the ships, but Feanor is unswayed. Amras looking for Amrod. Sail falls on the hatch of Amrod’s ship


Cirdan sees the fire from an island across the Firth. Feels a disturbance in the force. Gothmog sees it from the mountains above with a smile.


Turgon’s vision: Eagles above the Encircling peaks. Eagle’s eye view of the burning of the ships. A ship, still on fire but mostly a burnt-out hulk, comes up to the shore of Aman, and inside is a burnt body bearing the sigil of Feanor.


Feanorian Reaction to the Burning: Amrod screaming. Amras runs out to the water to try and save him, but is held back. Amras spills the beans, Feanor reacts with shock, but recovers very quickly to rationalize Amrod’s death with oath and the trimmings. Amras is furious and shouts tearfully that Feanor is fey and fell before moving to storm off. Curufin (perhaps with the aid of Caranthir) seizes Amras, and attempt(s) to drag him back before Feanor. Maedhros stops them: “How many brother’s must we lose now?”


Fingolfin’s decision: Turgon finishes telling Fingolfin’s council of his vision. The positions are restated more vehemently this time, though Fingon remains silent, his voice now replaced with that of Turgon. Fingolfin makes his final decision. They cannot go back, but they must find their way to the North.


Feanorians leaving the shore, fade by fade. Cirdan arrives with Celeborn. “Why?” “Only the Enemy would wreak such destruction”


Orcs burning things for no reason while heading south.


Tag:


Estel slips away from his and Hamilcar’s camp by night while Hamilcar sleeps.
 
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Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
You've still got Fingon and Finrod confused in the first scene.

I don't think they are purposely scuttling the ship. The ship capsizes and the Feanorians abandon it. We can even show a shot of the palantir resting on the sea floor. Perhaps with an image of Nerdanel in it.
So it's enough that gross user error cancels out the general unsinkability of Telerian ships.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
It is difficult to sail a ship without a mast. If you can't repair it, the vessel becomes derelict. If someone can think of another form of gross user error, we can use that instead, but whatever we choose has to make it clear to the audience that the ship is well built and awesome; it's the incompetent captain who broke it.

If we want, the Fëanoreans can make the vessel unsailable, and then, being unable to really steer, they crash it into an iceberg. Even well-built ships sink when they have giant holes in them....

I don't think we need to invent an attack by a giant sea serpent or kraken...but, I mean, there are options. We can take out this one ship in a freak accident kind of way if we need to.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Good work guys. One question: the sinking ship, is that necessary? It is quite dramatic but in a way that is paradoxically undramatic, and what does it give us? The consequences seem to be that a palantir is dropped, Amrod can't communicate with his mother and he gets to talk to Amras about it. Could they be on the same ship from the start and he just drops his palantir into the water?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
We have two facts we wanted to convey on this transoceanic voyage - the Teleri have built awesome ships that can make this journey safely! ... and the Fëanoreans are terrible sailors who don't know what they're doing. So, some mishap at sea seemed necessary.

I agree that that is a bit of action that might seem superfluous, but we do need the part with Amrod's motivations, so this seems like a 'save' where he's been rescued, but...not really.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Ok. Could he just...fall overboard? He could be up in the mast, looking back at Valinor, and fall into the water?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Ok. Could he just...fall overboard? He could be up in the mast, looking back at Valinor, and fall into the water?
The ship would have to be listing quite heavily for that to happen anyway, otherwise he would just fall to the deck. And just falling overboard seems considerably more contrived than bad sailing resulting in a disabled and capsized ship. The idea is that the Feanorians, through poor seamenship, capsize the vessel. Even then, the Teleri would simply right the ship, repair the mast, and continue. The Feanorians don't have any idea how to do those things.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
The ship would have to be listing quite heavily for that to happen anyway, otherwise he would just fall to the deck. And just falling overboard seems considerably more contrived than bad sailing resulting in a disabled and capsized ship. The idea is that the Feanorians, through poor seamenship, capsize the vessel. Even then, the Teleri would simply right the ship, repair the mast, and continue. The Feanorians don't have any idea how to do those things.
Not at all convinced, I’m afraid. My experience of sailing is a bit limited but I’d say that before a ship capsizes it lists, and probably during hard wind that would be able to catapult an inexperienced sailor from the top of the mast or at least force him to fall - and the mast would be quite short if it didn’t drop him in the water.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Not at all convinced, I’m afraid. My experience of sailing is a bit limited but I’d say that before a ship capsizes it lists, and probably during hard wind that would be able to catapult an inexperienced sailor from the top of the mast or at least force him to fall - and the mast would be quite short if it didn’t drop him in the water.
I've only done a small amount of sailing for someone who grew up on an island two miles from the ocean myself. :)

The amount of wind it takes to hurl a person is considerably greater than what is necessary to lean a ship over. We just don't have nearly as much wind resistance in comparison to relative mass as a sail does. My question is why there is resistance to capsizing the ship. We certainly aren't going for drama here, as we are joining this scene in media res and Amras easily rescuing his brother and their crew. The drama comes in afterward.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I've only done a small amount of sailing for someone who grew up on an island two miles from the ocean myself. :)

The amount of wind it takes to hurl a person is considerably greater than what is necessary to lean a ship over. We just don't have nearly as much wind resistance in comparison to relative mass as a sail does. My question is why there is resistance to capsizing the ship. We certainly aren't going for drama here, as we are joining this scene in media res and Amras easily rescuing his brother and their crew. The drama comes in afterward.
A capsizing ship is either dramatic or ridiculous. I assume we’re not going for laughs here, so I guess it will have to be drama - unless you just let it happen, oops, let’s forget about that, just keep going... After all, it’s not just Amrod who falls into the water, it’s a whole lot of elves. So it could be a big thing. But I guess they can swim, because, well, they’re Noldor, so they’re not in any greater danger (or are they?)...so what are we doing, why are we telling this story? It feels out of tune. If you want to mark Amrod as someone who almost dies but is saved, I get that, but it seems that it isn’t dramatic so is he saved from death or not?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
A capsizing ship is either dramatic or ridiculous. I assume we’re not going for laughs here, so I guess it will have to be drama - unless you just let it happen, oops, let’s forget about that, just keep going... After all, it’s not just Amrod who falls into the water, it’s a whole lot of elves. So it could be a big thing. But I guess they can swim, because, well, they’re Noldor, so they’re not in any greater danger (or are they?)...so what are we doing, why are we telling this story? It feels out of tune. If you want to mark Amrod as someone who almost dies but is saved, I get that, but it seems that it isn’t dramatic so is he saved from death or not?
I think we might be looking at this a bit differently. Having capsized a boat (not a ship, obviously) myself, I know it can happen very quickly if you are inexperienced, but doesn't have to be life-threatening, even in deep water. I have also nearly capsized a sailboat as well. But I think how dramatic it is on screen will be in the editing. If the mast snaps, and the wing sails drive one side under within seconds, and no one is hurt because they are all on deck and jump free, it is not dangerous if they are immediately rescued. We would be able to see the other ships close by, and no that unless someone is trapped belowdecks, it is going to be ok. If we spend a lot of time on it, with building music, it will certainly look more dramatic.

I might film something tonight that will demonstrate what I'm talking about. For example, if I have a shot of me walking slowly up my stairs at home, there is no drama to that. But add creepy music, and a few well placed shots so that the sequence is longer, it adds a significant amount of drama.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I think we might be looking at this a bit differently. Having capsized a boat (not a ship, obviously) myself, I know it can happen very quickly if you are inexperienced, but doesn't have to be life-threatening, even in deep water. I have also nearly capsized a sailboat as well. But I think how dramatic it is on screen will be in the editing. If the mast snaps, and the wing sails drive one side under within seconds, and no one is hurt because they are all on deck and jump free, it is not dangerous if they are immediately rescued. We would be able to see the other ships close by, and no that unless someone is trapped belowdecks, it is going to be ok. If we spend a lot of time on it, with building music, it will certainly look more dramatic.

I might film something tonight that will demonstrate what I'm talking about. For example, if I have a shot of me walking slowly up my stairs at home, there is no drama to that. But add creepy music, and a few well placed shots so that the sequence is longer, it adds a significant amount of drama.
Well, forgive me for being a bit picky but this idea doesn’t really add anything substantial. I’d much rather have one of the older brothers get fed up with his looking in the palantir so much and throw it into the sea. That would add some in group tension.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Well, forgive me for being a bit picky but this idea doesn’t really add anything substantial. I’d much rather have one of the older brothers get fed up with his looking in the palantir so much and throw it into the sea. That would add some in group tension.
I don't see it as being picky, I've done the same quite often. What is being added is a moment where we can discuss the palantir and how its loss affects Amrod. It gives us a likeable moment for both him and his brother without having to add enmity between Amrod and another of his brothers, as we are going to get plenty of that soon enough. It shows that the Feanorians are poor sailors. It establishes that Amrod wants to go back without Amras knowing exactly what his plans are. It sets up a discussion of the Oath and how the sons of Feanor perceive it.

This seemed to us the most efficient way to get all of those things done, but I'd be willing to consider other options.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
I don't see it as being picky, I've done the same quite often. What is being added is a moment where we can discuss the palantir and how its loss affects Amrod. It gives us a likeable moment for both him and his brother without having to add enmity between Amrod and another of his brothers, as we are going to get plenty of that soon enough. It shows that the Feanorians are poor sailors. It establishes that Amrod wants to go back without Amras knowing exactly what his plans are. It sets up a discussion of the Oath and how the sons of Feanor perceive it.

This seemed to us the most efficient way to get all of those things done, but I'd be willing to consider other options.
My problem is that it isn’t efficient. I agree that it shows all the things you mention but in my opinion it becomes too much - and too little. I’m also curious why you want to take down the whole ship when you could just let Amrod fall overboard. It feels unnecessary and smudges the significance of the event, if we have to have it. We could also, as I suggested above, have Caranthir (for example) becoming annoyed by Amrod looking into the palantir and then take it from him and throw it into the water. That would establish Amrod’s feelings and also show Caranthir (who could do it ruthlessly or saying his younger brother has to cut the cord, that kind of longing is bad for you).
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
My problem is that it isn’t efficient. I agree that it shows all the things you mention but in my opinion it becomes too much - and too little. I’m also curious why you want to take down the whole ship when you could just let Amrod fall overboard. It feels unnecessary and smudges the significance of the event, if we have to have it. We could also, as I suggested above, have Caranthir (for example) becoming annoyed by Amrod looking into the palantir and then take it from him and throw it into the water. That would establish Amrod’s feelings and also show Caranthir (who could do it ruthlessly or saying his younger brother has to cut the cord, that kind of longing is bad for you).
I'm afraid I don't see the inefficiency you're describing, but we may be thinking about it differently. I'm thinking of saying as much as we can in a single sequence, since we already have so many scenes in this episode.

I’m also curious why you want to take down the whole ship when you could just let Amrod fall overboard. It feels unnecessary and smudges the significance of the event, if we have to have it.
An individual just falling overboard seems more like a manufactured accident to me, especially if we have to also have him lose the palantir out of ... his pocket, I suppose? Also, it seems to me to make Amrod look clumsy and careless rather than making the Feanorians generally look like poor sailors.

We could also, as I suggested above, have Caranthir (for example) becoming annoyed by Amrod looking into the palantir and then take it from him and throw it into the water. That would establish Amrod’s feelings and also show Caranthir (who could do it ruthlessly or saying his younger brother has to cut the cord, that kind of longing is bad for you).
This does not actually do anything concerning setting up the Feanorians as poor sailors, for one thing. It also risks inviting the audience to see Amrod as a bully victim and a whiner, rather than a sympathetic character who has a good relationship with his twin brother. Not to mention, Amrod is less likely to be honest about how he feels with Caranthir than with Amras. Finally, it seems unlikely to me that Caranthir would throw away something so useful. I feel like he would be more likely to give it to Feanor (or even keep it for himself) instead.
 
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