S03E09 Script Discussion

Discussion in 'Season 3' started by Nicholas Palazzo, Feb 11, 2018.

  1. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

  2. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

  3. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Well-Known Member

    Episode 9: First Battle in Beleriand

    Frame teaster: Solo adventures of 16-year old Estel. Accidentally goes in a circle back to where he disagreed with Hamilcar and realizes he was also wrong in the argument

    Beleg et al have not reached Menegroth yet

    Finarfin returns to Valinor


    protagonists:

    East Battle: Mablung

    Fëanorians: Celegorm

    Fingolfin’s host: Fingolfin



    Act I

    1. Mablung arrives in Ossiriand and informs Denethor that Thingol is planning to attack, and has sent word to the Dwarves.

    plan: Sindar and Dwarves as pincher to drive Orcs into a wetland trap that looks like a solid land clearing in a forest next to Amon Ereb, and shoot them. Laiquendi only to be auxiliary skirmishers.

    timing is based on movement of the stars, but there is miscommunication with Dwarves

    Mablung convinces a reluctant Denethor to aid Thingol

    The Green elves put on some of the armor, perhaps mostly helmets. Mablung advices Denethor of their part in the battle.

    Sindar giving advice to Laiquendi, but it all goes wrong and they underestimated the Orcs (in #, preparedness, and how soon they meet them)

    Denethor doesn’t even have armor – Mablung offers him some and he tries but isn’t comfortable with it?

    Ents are away because they are wandering to do something Ent-centric. what?

    Mablung wants to fortify Amon Ereb as a retreat option

    2. Fëanor and the Noldor go up along the Drengist, wary of enemies.

    Celegorm goes exploring with Huan, they can converse but no subtitles: more like C3PO and R2D2

    discover the Rainbow Cleft at the head of Drengist

    disagreement and Losgar fallout among Fëanorians

    3. Fingolfin inspires his people to cross the Grinding Ice with epic speech

    declares himself King of the Ñoldor

    4. Spies report to Morgoth that a group of unknown Elves are moving up through the Echoing Hills. He sends an order to Sauron to return, and orders Gothmog to “test the enemies” (slaughter them) with Orcs.

    Gothmog orders the Orcs to attack and they set out.

    Morgoth also recalls Sauron and his army, in case there is any further retaliation from Valinor

    Testing both of them as generals, not as front-line combatants, so Balrogs are not to engage the entire army

    5. Sauron recieves the news that he must return to assist in the defence of Angband. He leaves a part of his army by the Havens, and goes north with Draugluin. They meet Tevildo, who comes from Doriath.

    6. Thingol’s Elves are positioned near the Orcs and are waiting/looking for the Dwarves, why aren’t they here?

    but far from the Laiquendi

    Orcs see him there and push towards Thingol

    Denethor makes the call to aid Thingol

    7. Denethor arrives to the battlefield with his Green Elves (and Mablung). They are suddenly confronted with a huge army of Orcs. Mablung realises that they can’t run and makes them retreat to Amon Ereb. This only partly saves them, they are mostly slaughtered and Denethor dies. Mablung and a small group make a last stand on top of Amon Ereb.

    Laiquendi have difficulty with ordered retreat – aren’t organized, are flanked and outnumbered and outarmed

    Dwarves didn’t arrive on time because Why?

    Norn arrives after Denethor dies to say “Dwarves are on their way”

    messenger was NOT killed

    encountered a side-group of Orcs and mopped them up?

    their forward party were wiped out by Orcs?

    miscommunication due to imperfect translation and/or different perceptions of time?

    My suggestion: introduce Galadhon and Galathil they’d be an ascended extras

    what does Saeros do?

    8. Fingolfin’s folk start to actually cross the Helcaraxë.

    food available:

    food provisions

    lembas
    eat the few remaining animals (horses, dogs, llamas/pack animals: no cows/sheep/pigs/goats)

    Death of Elenwë

    in book the ice collapses under her and Idril, Turgon pulls Idril out and dives in again and again trying to get Elenwë, until he almost dies

    or put off her death until Ep 10?

    9. The Ñoldor set up camp by Lake Mithrim.

    10. The Ents arrive to Amon Ereb and Thingol as well and save the remaining Green Elves, who would have been totally wiped out if it hadn’t been for Mablung.

    Thingol leads his own army

    did he leave anyone behind to defend Doriath?

    some Ents die – young adult Ents?

    and how did they know to come back to fight?

    maybe they hear the earth groan under the hated feet of orcs?

    Boldog escapes

    11. Orcs ambush Mithrim? (or next Ep?)



    Frame tag: Estel regains wolves’ trail and follows it to Buckland or Eastfarthing











    Next episode (Ep 10):

    (Cirdan and Celeborn think an orc army killed Teleri from Valinor, and don’t want to go meet that army)

    (Dwarves kill Orcs next episode)
    (Second Battle starts next episode)

    (a lot of the discussion of the Battle occurs in the Ep 9 thread)

    later eps
    Daeron fights the spiders with music

    spiders kill Galadhon?? Galathil and Thingol and Celeborn can mourn him
     
  4. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    The Green Elves will never go to war again after this - we should emphasize the decision to go to war now.

    Here is Karen Fonstad's map of this battle:
    [​IMG]

    We should point out that Amon Ereb will be a bit further north, though not as far north as Ascar.


    Act 1

    When Mablung arrives to request Denethor's help, Denethor is reticent. Mablung is not happy to see the absent ents and the stone-tipped arrows and leather armor, and alters the battle plan to accommodate the weakness of the Green Elves. He promises to do his best to protect Denethor's people. Denethor reluctantly agrees.

    Mablung is directing the Green Elves to fortify Amon Ereb. Messengers (birds?) are sent to the ents. Denethor rejects armor brought by Mablung. Saeros looks interested in armor but follows Denethor's lead.


    Act 2

    Thingol is at the battlefield, waiting for the dwarves to arrive. The orcs discover the elves and attack.

    Seeing this, the Green elves also attack the orcs with arrows from behind. But...it does not go well, and there are many more orcs than the Green Elves thought. When Denethor is killed, the Green Elves are routed. They retreat through the swamps, the orcs following, to their fortifications on Amon Ereb.

    Act 3
    Mablung recommends retreating, leaving Amon Ereb, but Saeros thinks that will be even more dangerous and decides to stay.

    The ents arrive!

    Act4

    Boldog kills an ent.

    Thingol arrives.

    The orcs are routed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  5. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    Brian DimmickANd Thingol doesn't have much experience planning large military campaigns, so may not fully appreciate the need for precise coordination.
    [​IMG]
    Brian DimmickIF they don't know how to use bows Mablung would know this in advance and using them int he battle at all woudl be a foolish strategy.
    [​IMG]
    Brian DimmickHave the orcs seen the ents before? Would they react with confusion at trees marching?
    [​IMG]
    Brian DimmickAre the fortifications on Amon Ereb made of wood? Wouldn't the green elves object to cutting down trees to make the fortifications?
     
  6. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Valinor arc

    Act 1

    The elves see the Helcaraxë for the first time. There is a barrier (a wall of sea ice) that makes the way nearly impassible. The Noldor are not convinced that going forward is a good plan.

    Act 2

    Finarfin's return; penitence in the Ring of Doom. The Valar list their crimes - rebellion.

    Act 4

    The Valar forgive Finarfin and make him king of Tirion. Oromë finds Tilion and tells him he has a job for him to do.

    Fingolfin gives a motivational speech and declares himself king. The crossing of the Helcaraxë begins.

     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  7. Brian Dimmick

    Brian Dimmick Active Member

    If everyone is reading this I'll just repost comments here.

    They will be walking on ice and suddenly realize that there is water under the ice, not land.

    Also, do they have a point of no return moment, where they realize that there is no turning back (for eample, there is a stretch of thin ice or open water behidn them that they can't easily cross back?)
     
  8. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Not in this episode!
     
  9. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Well-Known Member

    Episode 9: First Battle in Beleriand
    Frame teaster: Solo adventures of 16-year old Estel. Accidentally goes in a circle back to where he disagreed with Hamilcar and realizes he was also wrong in the argument


    Beleg et al have not reached Menegroth yet



    Protagonists:
    East Battle: Mablung
    Fëanorians: Celegorm
    Fingolfin’s host: Fingolfin


    First Appearnces: Tilion, shadow-demons
    Last Appearances: Denethor


    Act I
    1. Mablung arrives in Ossiriand and informs Denethor that Thingol is planning to attack, and has sent word to the Dwarves.
    • plan: Sindar and Dwarves as pincher to drive Orcs into a wetland trap that looks like a solid land clearing in a forest next to Amon Ereb, and shoot them. Laiquendi only to be auxiliary skirmishers.
    • timing is based on movement of the stars, but there is miscommunication with Dwarves
    • Mablung convinces a reluctant Denethor to aid Thingol, promises to keep them out of main combat
    • Sindar giving advice to Laiquendi, but it all goes wrong and they underestimated the Orcs (in #, preparedness, and how soon they meet them)
    • only stone weapons – no use against Orc armor
    • Ents/Entwives are away because they are wandering to do something Ent-centric elsewhere
    • Mablung says he has a Plan B
    2. Celegorm goes scouting up along the Drengist with Huan, wary of enemies. they can converse but no subtitles: more like C3PO and R2D2
    • upset about Amrod dying at Losgar, but at least happy to explore stuff
    3. Mablung wants to fortify Amon Ereb and tries to armor Denethor
    • with no Ents to make earthworks, they need to make fortifications by cutting trees for wood, which makes Laiquendi very unhappy
    • The Green Elves put on some of the armor, perhaps mostly helmets.
    • Denethor doesn’t even have armor – Mablung offers him some and he tries but isn’t comfortable with it – some Laiquendi do wear it, there isn’t enough for everyone and Denethor goes without
    • Saeros admires the cool-looking armor, but reluctantly does as Denethor does
    • Laiquendi send a bird messenger to call upon the Ents
    4. Fingolfin’s host arrives to Helkaraxë and see it for the first time
    • they'll have to climb up a physical barrier – a piece of sea-ice that jammed up against the shore and turned on end
    • people become aware this will be miserable and very difficult, but they have no idea how bad
    • they have horses, dogs (white with red ears?), pack animals: oxen or alpacas
      • only VERY SMALL numbers of animals – Fëanor took the vast majority
    5. Finarfin has returned to Valinor
    • penitence before Valar in Mahanaxar, makes no claim of lordship
    • reactions of the Valar
    • Manwë reminds him of all the things he and the Noldor did wrong
    • Aulë is especially ticked off at them
    • Nessa is also angry, accuses them of complicity in Kinslaying and following Fëanor afterwards
    • Tulkas is angry but doesn’t even speak
    • a Vala (other than Manwë) reminds the audience that Manwë’s authority is appointed by Eru
    • Finarfin and co are guilty of Rebellion and following Fëanor. that’s the focus. leaving was not itself wrong.

    Act II
    6. Thingol’s Elves are positioning on the battlefield, can see the Orcs but are waiting/looking for the Dwarves, why aren’t they here?
    • far from the Laiquendi (who are waaaay across a large battlefield from them)
    • Orcs see Sindar there and part of Orc army pushes towards Thingol
    7. Spies report to Morgoth that a group of unknown Elves are moving up through the Echoing Hills. orders Gothmog to kill all the Noldor.
    • Morgoth also sends an order recalling Sauron and his army, in case there is any further retaliation from Valinor
    • Testing both of them as generals, not as front-line combatants
    • “Sauron has been a good general, you have been a good warrior but can you be a good general too?”
    • orders are NOT “Do not personally engage”
    8. Denethor makes the call to shoot the Orcs’ rear, miscalculating badly
    • Mablung says Dwarves aren’t here yet
    • Orcs start slaughtering Laiquendi. Mablung tries to start an orderly retreat, but Denethor is killed
    • the retreat becomes a route

    Act III
    9. Mablung and a small group make a last stand on top of Amon Ereb.
    • Saeros takes command upon the hill fortification
      • Hosts want him to have a cautious, lead-from-behind style, but not be an obvious coward
    • Norn arrives after Denethor dies to say “Dwarves are on their way”
    • Dwarves didn’t arrive on time – Why?
      • messenger was NOT killed
      • encountered a side-group of Orcs and mopped them up? (Hosts would prefer not)
      • their forward party were wiped out by Orcs? (Hosts would prefer not)
      • miscommunication due to imperfect translation and/or different perceptions of time?
      • miscommunication due to Thingol not understanding how to coordinate precisely enough, and giving the Dwarves vague timing information?
      • miscommunication due to having to rely upon star movements for timing, and the Dwarves aren't good at astronomy?
    10. Celegorm and Huan discover the Rainbow Cleft (no rainbows) at the head of Drengist
    11. Orcs are breaking through Elves’ defenses, ammo is running out, too many Orcs
    • Mablung sees their position is untenable, tries to suggest hidden way to retreat OFF of the hill
    • Saeros points out this is just as dangerous as staying ON the hill, chooses to stay on
    12. Morgoth sends some shadow demons onto the Helkaraxë to keep watch on West in case Valar come
    13. Daeron and Luthien are dancing and Tevildo spies on them, as they go back to Menegroth entrance
    14. The Ents arrive to Amon Ereb and help Laiquendi
    • Ents wade through the stream and up the hill and fill in gaps in fortification
    • looks like eucatastrophe

    Act IV
    15. Ents aren’t enough to save Elves. some Ents die – young adult Ents who are less tough. Boldog kills one with an axe.
    16. battle overview shots, escape route down the hill is cut off, lots more Elves die, it looks totally hopeless
    17. Thingol arrives and save the remaining Green Elves, who would have been totally wiped out if it hadn’t been for Mablung.
    • Thingol leads his own army
    • did he leave anyone behind to defend Doriath?
    • Galadhon should be one of his captains
    • Orcs fall into disarray and stream off the hill
    • Boldog escapes with some Orcs
    18. Valar forgive Finarfin
    • Finarfin must take responsibility for his people, and should be King now and make amends to Teleri to restore peace
    • fix and make sure it won’t happen again
    • Manwe wants to teach a lesson that Kingship is not about being honored and having power, it’s about taking responsibility for your people and fixing problems
    • Orome says to Tilion “I have a job for you”
    19. Fingolfin inspires/motivates his people to cross the Grinding Ice with epic speech
    • declares himself King of the Ñoldor (he is claiming it in pride, but also taking responsibility)
    • starts to personally climb over the ice barrier
    • Noldor follow him
    20. Fëanorians set up camp by Lake Mithrim (brief scene)
    • they don’t like each other anymore

    Frame tag: Estel regains wolves’ trail in the snow and follows it to Buckland or Eastfarthing
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018 at 5:18 AM
  10. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    Hey, during the session, I couldn't figure out a place to put Norn's arrival with Mablung. I realized yesterday that we could have Norn already with Thingol so that we can illustrate the dwarvish side of the equation there.
     
    MithLuin likes this.
  11. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Well-Known Member

    I'm now listening to the podcast about Ep 8, and the initial suggestion was for Galadriel (instead of Angrod) to say they should get vengeance on Feanor. We decided she wasn't even invited to the council discussion about that. In this episode we had Fingolfin alone give a speech instead of holding a council.

    But I like the idea. Can we include Galadriel and maybe Angrod expressing a desire for revenge against Feanor, during the actual crossing of the Helkaraxe? Maybe chiming in to agree when Turgon says something vengeant/bloodthirsty, after Elenwe dies.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
    Nicholas Palazzo likes this.
  12. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I think we can manage that.
     
  13. Faelivrin

    Faelivrin Well-Known Member

    I realized we haven't included the Elenwe and Turgon discussion in which Elenwe foresees their family have a destiny in Middle-earth. Would it fit in Scene 4? It seemed like a scene we couldn't put after they already decide to start crossing the Ice.
     
  14. Nicholas Palazzo

    Nicholas Palazzo Well-Known Member

    I agree. I had forgotten about that point because the episode was already looking pretty busy.
     

Share This Page