S03E09 Script Discussion

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
[GALLERY=media, 188]First Battle by Nicholas Palazzo posted Feb 10, 2018 at 9:30 PM[/GALLERY][GALLERY=media, 187]Amon Ereb by Nicholas Palazzo posted Feb 10, 2018 at 9:30 PM[/GALLERY]
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Episode 9: First Battle in Beleriand

Frame teaster: Solo adventures of 16-year old Estel. Accidentally goes in a circle back to where he disagreed with Hamilcar and realizes he was also wrong in the argument

Beleg et al have not reached Menegroth yet

Finarfin returns to Valinor


protagonists:

East Battle: Mablung

Fëanorians: Celegorm

Fingolfin’s host: Fingolfin



Act I

1. Mablung arrives in Ossiriand and informs Denethor that Thingol is planning to attack, and has sent word to the Dwarves.

plan: Sindar and Dwarves as pincher to drive Orcs into a wetland trap that looks like a solid land clearing in a forest next to Amon Ereb, and shoot them. Laiquendi only to be auxiliary skirmishers.

timing is based on movement of the stars, but there is miscommunication with Dwarves

Mablung convinces a reluctant Denethor to aid Thingol

The Green elves put on some of the armor, perhaps mostly helmets. Mablung advices Denethor of their part in the battle.

Sindar giving advice to Laiquendi, but it all goes wrong and they underestimated the Orcs (in #, preparedness, and how soon they meet them)

Denethor doesn’t even have armor – Mablung offers him some and he tries but isn’t comfortable with it?

Ents are away because they are wandering to do something Ent-centric. what?

Mablung wants to fortify Amon Ereb as a retreat option

2. Fëanor and the Noldor go up along the Drengist, wary of enemies.

Celegorm goes exploring with Huan, they can converse but no subtitles: more like C3PO and R2D2

discover the Rainbow Cleft at the head of Drengist

disagreement and Losgar fallout among Fëanorians

3. Fingolfin inspires his people to cross the Grinding Ice with epic speech

declares himself King of the Ñoldor

4. Spies report to Morgoth that a group of unknown Elves are moving up through the Echoing Hills. He sends an order to Sauron to return, and orders Gothmog to “test the enemies” (slaughter them) with Orcs.

Gothmog orders the Orcs to attack and they set out.

Morgoth also recalls Sauron and his army, in case there is any further retaliation from Valinor

Testing both of them as generals, not as front-line combatants, so Balrogs are not to engage the entire army

5. Sauron recieves the news that he must return to assist in the defence of Angband. He leaves a part of his army by the Havens, and goes north with Draugluin. They meet Tevildo, who comes from Doriath.

6. Thingol’s Elves are positioned near the Orcs and are waiting/looking for the Dwarves, why aren’t they here?

but far from the Laiquendi

Orcs see him there and push towards Thingol

Denethor makes the call to aid Thingol

7. Denethor arrives to the battlefield with his Green Elves (and Mablung). They are suddenly confronted with a huge army of Orcs. Mablung realises that they can’t run and makes them retreat to Amon Ereb. This only partly saves them, they are mostly slaughtered and Denethor dies. Mablung and a small group make a last stand on top of Amon Ereb.

Laiquendi have difficulty with ordered retreat – aren’t organized, are flanked and outnumbered and outarmed

Dwarves didn’t arrive on time because Why?

Norn arrives after Denethor dies to say “Dwarves are on their way”

messenger was NOT killed

encountered a side-group of Orcs and mopped them up?

their forward party were wiped out by Orcs?

miscommunication due to imperfect translation and/or different perceptions of time?

My suggestion: introduce Galadhon and Galathil they’d be an ascended extras

what does Saeros do?

8. Fingolfin’s folk start to actually cross the Helcaraxë.

food available:

food provisions

lembas
eat the few remaining animals (horses, dogs, llamas/pack animals: no cows/sheep/pigs/goats)

Death of Elenwë

in book the ice collapses under her and Idril, Turgon pulls Idril out and dives in again and again trying to get Elenwë, until he almost dies

or put off her death until Ep 10?

9. The Ñoldor set up camp by Lake Mithrim.

10. The Ents arrive to Amon Ereb and Thingol as well and save the remaining Green Elves, who would have been totally wiped out if it hadn’t been for Mablung.

Thingol leads his own army

did he leave anyone behind to defend Doriath?

some Ents die – young adult Ents?

and how did they know to come back to fight?

maybe they hear the earth groan under the hated feet of orcs?

Boldog escapes

11. Orcs ambush Mithrim? (or next Ep?)



Frame tag: Estel regains wolves’ trail and follows it to Buckland or Eastfarthing











Next episode (Ep 10):

(Cirdan and Celeborn think an orc army killed Teleri from Valinor, and don’t want to go meet that army)

(Dwarves kill Orcs next episode)
(Second Battle starts next episode)

(a lot of the discussion of the Battle occurs in the Ep 9 thread)

later eps
Daeron fights the spiders with music

spiders kill Galadhon?? Galathil and Thingol and Celeborn can mourn him
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
The Green Elves will never go to war again after this - we should emphasize the decision to go to war now.

Here is Karen Fonstad's map of this battle:


We should point out that Amon Ereb will be a bit further north, though not as far north as Ascar.


Act 1

When Mablung arrives to request Denethor's help, Denethor is reticent. Mablung is not happy to see the absent ents and the stone-tipped arrows and leather armor, and alters the battle plan to accommodate the weakness of the Green Elves. He promises to do his best to protect Denethor's people. Denethor reluctantly agrees.

Mablung is directing the Green Elves to fortify Amon Ereb. Messengers (birds?) are sent to the ents. Denethor rejects armor brought by Mablung. Saeros looks interested in armor but follows Denethor's lead.


Act 2

Thingol is at the battlefield, waiting for the dwarves to arrive. The orcs discover the elves and attack.

Seeing this, the Green elves also attack the orcs with arrows from behind. But...it does not go well, and there are many more orcs than the Green Elves thought. When Denethor is killed, the Green Elves are routed. They retreat through the swamps, the orcs following, to their fortifications on Amon Ereb.

Act 3
Mablung recommends retreating, leaving Amon Ereb, but Saeros thinks that will be even more dangerous and decides to stay.

The ents arrive!

Act4

Boldog kills an ent.

Thingol arrives.

The orcs are routed.
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Brian DimmickANd Thingol doesn't have much experience planning large military campaigns, so may not fully appreciate the need for precise coordination.

Brian DimmickIF they don't know how to use bows Mablung would know this in advance and using them int he battle at all woudl be a foolish strategy.

Brian DimmickHave the orcs seen the ents before? Would they react with confusion at trees marching?

Brian DimmickAre the fortifications on Amon Ereb made of wood? Wouldn't the green elves object to cutting down trees to make the fortifications?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Valinor arc

Act 1

The elves see the Helcaraxë for the first time. There is a barrier (a wall of sea ice) that makes the way nearly impassible. The Noldor are not convinced that going forward is a good plan.

Act 2

Finarfin's return; penitence in the Ring of Doom. The Valar list their crimes - rebellion.

Act 4

The Valar forgive Finarfin and make him king of Tirion. Oromë finds Tilion and tells him he has a job for him to do.

Fingolfin gives a motivational speech and declares himself king. The crossing of the Helcaraxë begins.

 
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Brian Dimmick

Active Member
If everyone is reading this I'll just repost comments here.

They will be walking on ice and suddenly realize that there is water under the ice, not land.

Also, do they have a point of no return moment, where they realize that there is no turning back (for eample, there is a stretch of thin ice or open water behidn them that they can't easily cross back?)
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Beleg et al have not reached Menegroth yet

Season 3 Episode 9: First Battle in Beleriand

Protagonists:
East Battle: Mablung
Fëanorians: Celegorm
Fingolfin’s host: Fingolfin

First Appearnces: n/a
Last Appearances: Denethor

Summary: ??
Theme: ??



Frame teaster - Solo adventures of 16-year old Estel. Accidentally goes in a circle back to where he disagreed with Hamilcar and realizes he was also wrong in the argument.


Act I
Scene 1.
Ossiriand - Mablung arrives and informs Denethor that Thingol is planning to attack, and has sent word to the Dwarves. Mablung convinces a reluctant Denethor to aid Thingol, promises to keep them out of main combat. The plan is for the Sindar and Dwarves as pinchers to drive Orcs into a wetland trap that looks like a solid land clearing, in a forest next to Amon Ereb, and shoot them. Laiquendi only to be auxiliary skirmishers. The timing is based on movement of the stars, but (unknown to the Elves) there has been miscommunication with Dwarves.​
  • The Sindar give advice to the Laiquendi, but they underestimate the Orcs (in #, preparedness, and how soon they meet them).
  • The Laiquendi only have stone weapons – no use against Orc armor.
  • Ents/Entwives are away because they are wandering to do something Ent-centric elsewhere.
  • Mablung says he has a new plan.
Scene 2. Celegorm goes scouting up along the Drengist with Huan, wary of enemies. They can converse (but no subtitles: more like C3PO and R2D2). Celegorm is uphappy about Amrod dying at Losgar, but happy to explore the land.

Scene 3. Near Ossiriand - Mablung wants to fortify Amon Ereb and tries to armor Denethor.​
  • With no Ents to make earthworks, they need to make fortifications by cutting trees for wood, which makes Laiquendi very unhappy.
  • Denethor doesn’t even have armor – Mablung offers him some and he tries it, but isn’t comfortable with it. Some Laiquendi do wear it, perhaps mostly helmets. There isn’t enough for everyone and Denethor goes without. Saeros admires the cool-looking armor, but reluctantly does as Denethor does.
  • The Laiquendi send a bird messenger to call upon the Ents for aid.
Scene 4. Grinding Ice - Fingolfin’s host arrives to Helkaraxë and see it for the first time. They'll have to climb up a physical barrier – a piece of sea-ice that jammed up against the shore and turned on end - to actually go onto the Ice. They have horses, dogs (white with red ears?), and pack animals (oxen or alpacas), but only in VERY SMALL numbers – Fëanor took the vast majority. People become aware this will be a miserable and very difficult journey, but they have no idea how bad. Elenwë expresss a belief or foresight that her family has an important destiny in Middle-earth and she is in favor of going forward, even over the Ice.

Scene 5. Mahanaxar - Finarfin has returned to Valinor. His penitence before the Valar. He makes no claim of lordship. Reactions of the Valar:​
  • Manwë reminds him of all the things he and the Ñoldor did wrong.
  • Aulë is especially ticked off at them.
  • Nessa is also angry, accuses them of complicity in Kinslaying and following Fëanor afterwards.
  • Tulkas is angry but doesn’t even speak.
  • A Vala (other than Manwë) reminds the audience that Manwë’s authority is appointed by Eru. Finarfin and the rest are guilty of Rebellion and following Fëanor. That’s the focus. Leaving was not itself wrong.
Act II
Scene 6. East Beleriand - Thingol’s Elves are positioning on the battlefield, can see the Orcs and far, on the other side of a huge battlefield, they can see the Laiquendi. But they’re waiting/looking for the Dwarves - why aren’t they here? The Orcs see the Sindar there and part of the Orc army pushes towards Thingol.

Scene 7. Angband - Spies report to Morgoth that a group of unknown Elves are moving up through the Echoing Hills. Morgoth orders Gothmog to kill all the Ñoldor.​
  • Morgoth also sends an order recalling Sauron and his army, in case there is any further retaliation from Valinor.
  • Testing both of them as generals, not as front-line combatants. “Sauron has been a good general, you have been a good warrior but can you be a good general too?”
  • Orders are NOT “Do not personally engage”.
Scene 8. Near Ossiriand - Denethor makes the call to shoot the Orcs’ rear, miscalculating badly. Mablung cautions the Dwarves aren’t here yet. The Orcs start slaughtering Laiquendi. Mablung tries to start an orderly retreat, but Denethor dies while heroically standing in rearguard, sacrificing himself to defend his people. The retreat becomes a rout.

Scene 9. Drengist - Círdan and Celeborn have left Losgar and are on the ships. They discuss the burned ships. Círdan knows from what he could see of their structure that they were the work of Olwë’s folk and were the greatest ships ever made. He thinks Olwë’s people must have sent help to Beleriand and the Orcs slew the Elves. Círdan fears this means the Orcs could have killed Olwë himself.


Act III
Scene 10.
Amon Ereb - Mablung and a small group make a last stand on top of the hill.​
  • Saeros takes command upon the hill fortification. He has a cautious, lead-from-behind style, but is not an obvious coward.
  • The Dwarves didn’t arrive on time – Why?
    • Messenger was NOT killed.
    • Miscommunication due to imperfect translation and/or different perceptions of time?
    • Miscommunication due to Thingol not understanding how to coordinate precisely enough, and giving the Dwarves vague timing information?
    • Miscommunication due to having to rely upon star movements for timing, and the Dwarves aren't good at astronomy?
Scene 11. Drengist - Celegorm and Huan discover the Rainbow Cleft (no rainbows) at the head of Drengist

Scene 12. Amon Ereb - Orcs are breaking through Elves’ defenses, ammo is running out, too many Orcs. Mablung sees their position is untenable, tries to suggest a hidden way to retreat off of the hill. Saeros points out this is just as dangerous as staying on the hill, chooses to stay on.

Scene 13. Doriath - Daeron and Lúthien are dancing in the forest, and Tevildo spies on them, as they go back to Menegroth entrance. He sees the location.

Scene 14. Amon Ereb - The Ents arrive to help the Laiquendi. They wade through the stream and up the hill and fill in gaps in fortification. It looks like a eucatastrophe.


Act IV
Scene 15.
Amon Ereb - Ents aren’t enough to save the Elves. Some Ents die – young adult Ents who are less tough. Boldog kills one with an axe.

Scene 16. Amon Ereb - Battle aerial overview shots:​
  • The escape route down the hill is cut off now.
  • Lots more Elves die, it looks totally hopeless.
Scene 17. Amon Ereb - Thingol arrives, leading his army, and saves the remaining Green Elves, who would have been totally wiped out if it hadn’t been for Mablung. Galadhon is one of his captains (no lines). Norn is there with Thingol, and reassures Thingol that the Dwarves are coming. Defeated, the Orcs fall into disarray and stream off the hill. Boldog escapes with some of them.

Scene 18. Mahanaxar - The Valar forgive Finarfin.​
  • Finarfin must take responsibility for his people, and should be King now and make amends to Teleri to restore peace. Fix this and make sure it won’t happen again. Manwë wants to teach a lesson that Kingship is not about being honored and having power, it’s about taking responsibility for your people and fixing problems.
  • Oromë says to Tilion “I have a job for you”.
Scene 19. Grinding Ice - Fingolfin inspires/motivates his people to cross the Grinding Ice with an epic speech. He Declares himself King of the Ñoldor (he is claiming it in pride, but it isn't all bad -- he is also taking responsibility for his people), and starts to personally climb over the ice barrier. The Ñoldor follow him.

Scene 20. Mithrim - Fëanorians begin to set up camp by Lake Mithrim (brief scene). They don’t get along anymore.


Frame tag - Estel regains wolves’ trail in the snow and follows it to Buckland or Eastfarthing
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Hey, during the session, I couldn't figure out a place to put Norn's arrival with Mablung. I realized yesterday that we could have Norn already with Thingol so that we can illustrate the dwarvish side of the equation there.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I'm now listening to the podcast about Ep 8, and the initial suggestion was for Galadriel (instead of Angrod) to say they should get vengeance on Feanor. We decided she wasn't even invited to the council discussion about that. In this episode we had Fingolfin alone give a speech instead of holding a council.

But I like the idea. Can we include Galadriel and maybe Angrod expressing a desire for revenge against Feanor, during the actual crossing of the Helkaraxe? Maybe chiming in to agree when Turgon says something vengeant/bloodthirsty, after Elenwe dies.
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I'm now listening to the podcast about Ep 8, and the initial suggestion was for Galadriel (instead of Angrod) to say they should get vengeance on Feanor. We decided she wasn't even invited to the council discussion about that. In this episode we had Fingolfin alone give a speech instead of holding a council.

But I like the idea. Can we include Galadriel and maybe Angrod expressing a desire for revenge against Feanor, during the actual crossing of the Helkaraxe? Maybe chiming in to agree when Turgon says something vengeant/bloodthirsty, after Elenwe dies.
Yeah, I think we can manage that.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I realized we haven't included the Elenwe and Turgon discussion in which Elenwe foresees their family have a destiny in Middle-earth. Would it fit in Scene 4? It seemed like a scene we couldn't put after they already decide to start crossing the Ice.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I realized we haven't included the Elenwe and Turgon discussion in which Elenwe foresees their family have a destiny in Middle-earth. Would it fit in Scene 4? It seemed like a scene we couldn't put after they already decide to start crossing the Ice.
I agree. I had forgotten about that point because the episode was already looking pretty busy.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Scene 8. Denethor makes the call to shoot the Orcs’ rear, miscalculating badly.
  • Mablung says Dwarves aren’t here yet.
  • Orcs start slaughtering Laiquendi. Mablung tries to start an orderly retreat, but Denethor is killed.
  • The retreat becomes a rout.
I'd like to add here that Denethor should (after his initial mistake) take heroic defensive action which saves a great part of the retreating Green Elves. This would both show his bravery and give his name something that will make parents of future generations want to name their sons after him, and at the same time be rather foolish.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I'd like to add here that Denethor should (after his initial mistake) take heroic defensive action which saves a great part of the retreating Green Elves. This would both show his bravery and give his name something that will make parents of future generations want to name their sons after him, and at the same time be rather foolish.
Perhaps a last stand where he could have easily escaped?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I absolutely agree. Also, I should add that the initial mistake is one made with the very best of intentions, and certainly from a courageous place.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Maybe but not necessarily; the Gondorians are experienced warriors while Denethor is an amateur with some good instincts and inadequate skill to match them.
 
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