S03E11 Script Discussion

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
This episode is quite the challenge! We have a lot of different storylines to keep track of, and not a clear theme to the episode.

Frame: Protagonist is Hamilcar. He decides to go after Estel to rescue him, and makes a self-sacrificial move.

Fëanorean: Protagonist is Amras. He refuses to reswear the Oath when his father dies, and reacts to Thuringwethil's message.

Doriath: Daeron? Beleg returns with news of cats, and spiders attack!

Thingol: ???

Valinor: Make the Sun and Moon, but what is the story there? Tilion on the Helcaraxë.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Season 3 Episode 11: The Last Light
Protagonists: Hamilcar (Frame), Amras (Fëanorians), Yavanna (Valinor), Tilion (Helkaraxë), Thingol (Thingol plotline), Daeron (Doriath)
First appearances
: n/a
Last appearances: Fëanor; also Tilion and Arien (kind of)

Summary: ??
Theme: ??



Frame Teaser – Hamilcar goes looking for Estel. He backtracks to all the places they were at together. He can’t find him, and gets more and more concerned for Estel’s life and distraught. Exhausted, he sits down in a hollow for the night and falls asleep.


Act I
Scene 1a. Second Battle – a sequence of shots and images in media res: The Sons of Fëanor hacking their way through the Orcs. Somebody grabbing Fëanor and they start withdrawing. Balrogs pulling back or turning away from the Noldor. Fëanorians retreating over the plain towards Eithel Sirion, carrying Fëanor. Concern for his survival.
Nicholas Palazzo said:
I just saw the scene of the the sons of Fëanor pulling their wounded father from the battle in a way that gave me chills. Opening the episode with no introduction before we see short shots of the fight going in and out of focus with the sound slipping in and out with a heartbeat.

I would want to convey the sheer desperation and ferocity it would take all seven (or six) of them to drive away Gothmog! Truly one of the only great moments of true heroism we get from them all together, and I feel like we should convey their experience as best we can. We should see them gathered around him, shielding him with their blades and their bodies, even as he might wish he could have done for his own father.
Scene 1b. Near Eithel Sirion – Fëanor stops the march. His litter laid on the ground surrounded by his sons; he’s bandaged and unarmored. Amras realizing he’s dying. He breaks down and angrily accuses Fëanor of leading them to doom, into a war that’s impossible to win. Fëanor doesn’t care what Amros is saying, doesn’t even bother to respond. But he immediately sees a vision:
  • Abstract flames melting Fëanor’s crown down to nothing.
  • Huge armies of Orcs marching out under Thangorodrim against the starry sky...
  • ...fade the three peaks into the three Silmarils...
  • Morgoth with the Iron Crown and the three Silmarils, laughing...
  • ...Morgoth & Crown fade out; one Silmaril remains in the air just out of reach. Fëanor he reaches for it but can’t touch it.
Return to Fëanor himself physically reaching up into empty air. His sons are just confused.

Scene 2. Near Amon Ereb – Argument between Laiquendi and Dwarves.
  • Norn explains to Thingol that a wereguild is meant to show honor to the fallen, and to allay any harm that may have come about as a result of their uninentional delay. They are willing to accept some responsibility.
  • Mablung speaks to Azaghâl about the death of a King as an unthinkable tragedy that should never happen. “As valuable as your gift may be to you, to us it can never replace a King who should have ruled forever.”
  • Norn realizes for the first time the Elves (or at least, Elven-Kings) are immortal. He makes significant eye contact with Azaghal and conveys he has figured out something to tell him
Scene 3. Doriath – Beleg returns to Menegroth. He tells Melian that giant wolves sacked the Havens, but most people escaped on the ships and are at the Isle of Balar. His party encountered demon-cats capturing Elves near Menegroth and eating them alive. Daeron (and a bunch of extras) are sent out to gather up as many Elves from the forest into the Caves. They prepare to battle demon-cats.

Scene 4. Valar Interlude – Mahanaxar – Council of the Valar. Manwë receives Fëanor’s last retort to the Doom of Mandos. Manwë grieves for the fall of Fëanor, and speaks as in the book: “...Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.” Mandos: “And yet remain evil. To me shall Fëanor come soon.”
  • The Valar discuss whether or not they will intervene in Middle-earth against Melkor. Yavanna doesn’t want to abandon Middle-earth to him. Ulmo doesn’t want to abandon the people of Middle-earth, nor even the Rebel Noldor.
  • Reasons not to invervene militarily:
    • They will respect the free will of Noldor, who demand to fight Melkor without aid.
    • The Valar cannot possibly defeat Morgoth without destroying at least a continent, possibly even all of Arda.
    • They know Morgoth is using himself up and weakening himself – they can wait until he is easier to defeat with less collateral damage.
    • The Second Children will awake soon, and they know not where. A war between the Valar now may destroy them utterly.
    • A war against only the Noldor, who are little threat to him, will distract him from conquering the rest of Middle-earth.
    • It is in the Music: the time is not yet right.
  • Manwë rules they will not make war directly against Angband. Ulmo makes clear that he will intervene in some way. Manwë continues to condone his position.
  • Manwë tells Yavanna and Nienna to restore the light.
Act II
Scene 5. Doriath – Giant Spiders suddenly attack Grey Elves. Their axes and spears and bows are no use. Several are paralyzed, wrapped in webs, and dragged away to be eaten. Daeron witnesses this but arrives too late to save anybody. He finds one or more that has/have already been eaten – dried out empty corpse(s) still wrapped in shadow-black webs.

Scene 6. Eithel Sirion – Fëanor and sons are together. A healer is dealing with Fëanor’s bandaged burn wounds. Fëanor tells her to stop, and admits he’s dying. He looks upon Thangorodrim [show the distance from the battlefield through how small the mountain looks]. He orders his sons to repeat the Oath. Amras angrily refuses: he won’t do this just to please his father. It doesn’t matter if they swear it again, they’re already bound to the Oath, and already doomed to die because of him. But the other five sons [tearfully?] repeat the Oath as their father takes his last breaths. As soon as they finish, he bursts into flames (white, not like Balrog flames). Nothing is left but ashes. A subtle east wind blows the ashes. Show his sons faces: they are completely at a loss and emotionally gutted.

Scene 7. Ezellohar and Mahanaxar – Yavanna and Nienna sing to heal the Trees. Arien, Vána, and Lorien are there and watch the whole song, but the other Valar continue their Council. Yavanna, Arien, and Vána stand closer to Laurelin. Nienna and Lorien stand closer to Telperion.
  • At first, they hope to finally heal the Trees, but then they despair when the song doesn’t seem to work. Their great grief. Arien says she thought that they would have light forever after the fall of the Lamps.
  • Yavanna realizes that despite her grief for the Trees, this is about the hope to finally light all of Middle-earth and reawaken all her seeds and creatures. She encourages Nienna not to despair.
  • Their hope and wonder and surprise when the Flower and Fruit finally grow. Bittersweet gladness and grief blended together.
  • The Flower and Fruit are each at least as large as a large beach-ball, quite big but can be carried in two hands. Arien touches the Fruit, and it flares even brighter.
Scene 8. Helkaraxë – Ulmo and Tilion can see Fingolfin’s host crossing the Grinding Ice from afar, they talk about the Noldor. Ulmo wants to give them hope that they have not been wholly abandoned. Tilion: “They are walking from darkness into greater darkness, and don’t know it yet.”


Act III
Scene 9. Doriath – Daeron finds a group of wandering Grey Elves in a woodhall, as the Spiders are coming. He mobilizes them to flee. The Spiders arrive and begin to attack. Daeron is face to face with a giant Spider, and the first thing he thinks of is to sing of light. (In Sindarin: a poetic line about light driving back the shadow.) The Spiders flinch back.

Scene 10. Mahanaxar – The new Lights are englobed in now in crystal spheres, which are much larger: each is as tall as an actor. [Maybe: Varda or Nienna sorrowfully observes that the new Lights are pure, as the Trees were before Melkor and Ungoliant poisoned them. That holy light lives now only in the Silmarils, and they are lost.] Varda blesses the Flower and Fruit. Varda and Manwë say they will be put into the sky to be a light against the darkness of Melkor for all of Arda. The Valar discuss and plan the Hiding of Valinor. Ulmo disagrees with the Hiding.

Scene 11. Helkaraxë – Tilion shoots the Aurora Borealis into the sky over the Grinding Ice, with his silver bow. He gestures to make the arrows fly in wandering paths to create the wavering lines of the Aurora. Fingolfin’s people look up at it in wonder.

Scene 12. Fëanorians – The sons are grieving and at a loss of what to do. Their emotions are raw. [They have never had to truly think for themselves before.]
  • Curufin asks “Who is our father’s heir, who will carry on his legacy and ensure the Oath is fulfilled? Father did not name anyone.”
  • Maedhros just folds his arms and glares at Curufin.
  • Maglor: “Father was Grandfather’s heir. The eldest son inherits. Maedhros is the obvious heir.”
  • Curufin: “I did not say Maedhros is not the heir. I am saying that whoever is the heir should fulfill the Oath and our father’s will. The Oath was the most important thing to him. That was the last thing he wanted before he died. We have to do what he would want.” (He isn’t really scheming here, he’s genuinely grieving and concerned for his father’s will.)
  • Maedhros: “You never questioned father. Shall I rule as he did? Then do not question me.”
  • Caranthir puts himself forward as a better heir and accuses Maedhros of disobeying father at Losgar and being a bad heir.
  • Maedhros angrily shuts him up “How far are you prepared to take that?” Puts his hand on his sword, but does not draw.
  • Amras: “So tell me, what is your plan to fulfill this impossible Oath and win this impossible war, before we all kill each other? I don’t care which of you calls himself King. We clearly clearly cannot defeat that,” (points at Thangorodrim). “What would you have us do now?” He kind of hates all his brothers right now, and is beginning to despair.

Act IV
Scene 13. Near Ossiriand – All the Laiquendi survivors of the battle vote about whether or not to have another King – voting with colored leaves or stones, or standing up and sitting. The vast majority vote no King. Saeros is disappointed he can’t become King, and decides to follow Thingol back to Doriath. His close friends and relatives, from the battle and from Ossiriand itself, will go with Saeros [since all are his groupies, their loyalty to him will feed his ego.]

Scene 14. Doriath – Daeron acts as rearguard to hold back the Spiders while the group of Elves escape towards Menegroth. He holds the monsters back purely with song. The Elves are getting into the Gate of Menegroth. From the banks of Esgalduin, he looks out at the forest and sees the webs of shadow are everywhere in the trees: the Spiders are besieging Menegroth.

Scene 15. Ezellohar and/or Mahanaxar – Yavanna chooses Arien as the guardian of the Fruit of Laurelin. Nobody volunteers to guard the last Flower of Telperion. The Valar choose Olórin, but Yavanna isn’t quite sure he’s the one for the job. Tilion arrives almost too late and volunteers. Some are uncertain and point out he is unreliable. [Maybe Ulmo vouches for him.] Yavanna agrees he is the one fated to the Flower of Telperion.
  • Arien walks towards the Fruit of Laurelin, takes on her glorious winged fiery form; her light and the Fruit’s light grow and merge together until they cannot be told apart, and are too bright to look at.
  • Tilion walks towards the Last Flower and similarly, he merges into its light.
Scene 16a. Fëanorian camp in Mithrim – Maedhros and Amras converse privately. Maedhros admits he doesn’t actually know yet what they will do next. They are all committed to the Oath. Beyond that, he will take what opportunities come. “I need you to trust my judgment. You know that of all of us, I can have my own ideas. Curufin’s concept of being King is to be exactly like father. I know that Father was not always right, and that being King means doing what is best for the Noldor.”
  • The two of them make up. Amras is calmer now and remembers that Maedhros did not help kill Amrod.
  • (Maedhros asking Amras to trust him will set them up for when Maedhros utterly fails his trust at the Fifth Battle, leading Amras to break with his leadership after the Nirnaeth.)
Scene 16b. Fëanorian camp in Mithrim – Thuringwethil, with a few werewolves, arrives and demands to speak to Fëanor. Curufin says they refuse to allow her in their father’s presence, they will bring her word to Fëanor. She delivers the offer for the parley, including the Silmaril that may be offered. Initial reactions from the six brothers.


Frame Tag – Hamilcar wakes to hear werewolves howling. He rushes towards the sound and finds Estel cornered by two or three huge wolves. Hamilcar sets upon them from the side and manages to save Estel: he slays the biggest (were)wolf but it severely wounds him. The other two wolves flee. Hamilcar lies dying in Estel’s arms. Estel feels extremely guilty for his death, asks “why?” Hamilcar answers in Sindarin “I cannot let Estel die.”



earlier episodes:
I have removed all reference to shadow demons


next episode:
Helkaraxë Cold and misery and starvation
Turgon says something vengeant/bloodthirsty about Fëanor and sons. Galadriel and Angrod also express desire for revenge against Fëanor.
Curufin undermines Maedhros’ leadership, but only in very subtle ways. He is not scheming to overthrow him or get him offed, but to steer him to loyally follow Fëanor’s will in all things.
Boldog's remnant army returns to Angband
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I´m listening to your podcast right now... I realise the difficult discussion about sun & moon...

the problem of the vessels ,Steered Ship-like object, or smaller vessel, carried in Hands transforming into big celestial objects, the Maiar´s forems somehow melting or becoming one with them, or stepping aboard their "ships"...

that works in literature but I ,persanolly too have my trouble in visualising it. On screen it doesn´t work if you wish to stay in a physical-realistic world
, so i also can relate to the wish to not show the exact transformation but to sort of leave it out to imaginaqtion. But also the problem that an audience then maybe wouldn#t realize that the newly risen moon is identical with the fsilver fruit and how that ever happened.

But would it be completely out of choice to leave the field of believable physics? I already proposed that ,when in Aman, we might have sort of a parrelel-world to middle-earth/Ambar... and actions happening there are more dreamlike and not exactly related in sense of realism and physics to the planet. Like a different plane to talkin RPG terms...

so... why could NOT the Valar be able to take two blossoms/fruits in their hands, put them in vessels, put them on the horizon and make trhem grow and move their spirits into them?



If artfully done i COULD imagine such a scene, done with our actors in CGI
(the comic is from a Ninja turtles Book... I alkways liked that old japanese creation myth)
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I´m listening to your podcast right now... I realise the difficult discussion about sun & moon...

the problem of the vessels ,Steered Ship-like object, or smaller vessel, carried in Hands transforming into big celestial objects, the Maiar´s forems somehow melting or becoming one with them, or stepping aboard their "ships"...

that works in literature but I ,persanolly too have my trouble in visualising it. On screen it doesn´t work if you wish to stay in a physical-realistic world
, so i also can relate to the wish to not show the exact transformation but to sort of leave it out to imaginaqtion. But also the problem that an audience then maybe wouldn#t realize that the newly risen moon is identical with the fsilver fruit and how that ever happened.

But would it be completely out of choice to leave the field of believable physics? I already proposed that ,when in Aman, we might have sort of a parrelel-world to middle-earth/Ambar... and actions happening there are more dreamlike and not exactly related in sense of realism and physics to the planet. Like a different plane to talkin RPG terms...

so... why could NOT the Valar be able to take two blossoms/fruits in their hands, put them in vessels, put them on the horizon and make trhem grow and move their spirits into them?



If artfully done i COULD imagine such a scene, done with our actors in CGI
(the comic is from a Ninja turtles Book... I alkways liked that old japanese creation myth)

This was more or less my point. The size difference is so vast that no matter what we do, magic is obviously involved. It was not a hill I was willing to die on, though.
 

cellardur

Active Member
I've listened to 3/4 and maybe you guys will disagree with me, but I don't think we can downplay the death of Feanor. This is one of the defining moments of the early seasons, the loss of arguably the most influential Elf in the story. People talk about the shock of Ned Stark dying, but this is equally as big in the scope of the story.

More important than the sons fighting over who is the heir, needs to be the genuine heartbreak at the loss of their father and none more than Curufin. I am no script, but can we add a touching scene between Feanor with Curufin and Maedhros at his death. I agree Feanor shouldn't declare an heir, but he could make it ambiguous.

This is terrible and corny, but a better version where Feanor says something like this to Maedhros, 'Finwe is dead, and I am dying. It's now up to you Nelyafinwe to avenge us both.' This would make it look like his appointing Maedhros as king, but then he would last speak to Curufin and say something like, 'My father called me Curufin when I was a boy and so I named you. The father dies here, but I entrust it to you Atarinke to regain the Silmarils.' Then he could demand they swear the oath one more time.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Certainly, none of us were actually suggesting that we downplay Fëanor's death. I agree with you that it's very shocking and pivotal, as he has been *the* main character since his birth over a season ago. We merely meant that by having this death happen earlier in the episode, we are not making his death the event that the episode is building towards nor the climax. Therefore, it's about the sons' reaction to the death, not the death itself. Fëanor's death is not the end of the Season nor even the end of the episode - the story continues after he leaves it, and while that doesn't lessen the impact, it does alter the meaning, a bit.

I do like the suggestion that Fëanor has 'last words' for each of his sons. That is a fitting farewell for such a character. And as you point out, that leaves the heir question ambiguous, as he had final words for each of them, not just Maedhros. While Fëanor is not the type to apologize for his actions or unsay anything that he has said, he *could* acknowledge that he's going to see Amrod before any of them do. And that might be as close as he comes to reconciling with Amras at this moment. After that, he can request they reswear the Oath and then die.

We briefly touched on the idea of why Fëanor would heed the summons to the Halls of Mandos, rather than remaining a Houseless spirit. And I think the clear reason is that...his mother and father are there. Finwë and Míriel are in the Halls of Mandos, and so Fëanor will go to them (when he would not heed the summons of a Vala at this time). We don't need a 'Lo, there do I see my father, lo, there do I see my mother...' line from him, but we could capture the idea of that, I think.

I think that we have an opportunity for a meaningful/significant/artsy title for this episode. I had suggested 'Last Light of the Trees' to suggest that while it's the birth of the sun and the moon, it's the death of the Trees and the end of an era in some ways. I modeled that off the novel title 'Last Light of the Sun' by Guy Gavriel Kay. Something like 'Dying Light' would be a double reference to the dying Trees as well as the death of the Spirit of Fire (and I suppose we'd have Hamilcar die at sunset just to round all of this death off nicely). Any other suggestions on how best to capture this?

I think that the Act 3 scene should combine the idea of shock/anger/grief and the idea of 'what do we do now?' The sons of Fëanor should seem rather moorless and at a loss after the loss of their father, and that comes out in the grieving. Maedhros is going to act rather shockingly angry in this scene, almost out of character for someone who has been so level-headed and practical up to this point. That anger is his grief, his being upset about being thrust into his father's role. Curufin's interest is less in 'who is the heir?' and more in 'how do we preserve father's legacy and continue his work?' In other words, he's fine with Maedhros being in charge (for now), but he's not fine with Maedhros changing the rules. I know it will be easy to paint Curufin as a conniving villain. Because, well, he is, a bit. But he's subtle as well, and the emphasis here is on grief. He's not scheming for the throne or anything like that. He's majorly upset over the death of his father, and that's what we want to see. Any grasping from him now would be too much.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
hile Fëanor is not the type to apologize for his actions or unsay anything that he has said, he *could* acknowledge that he's going to see Amrod before any of them do. And that might be as close as he comes to reconciling with Amras at this moment.
I do not think that Feanor will acknowledge the death of Amrod in any way. I think admitting he killed his son would be too close to admitting he did wrong, and very out of character.

I did give in on making Maedhros willing to threaten his brothers with major violence, but I think it would be a mistake to write something that would make it look like Feanor has any moral conscience.
 
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cellardur

Active Member
I do not think that Feanor will acknowledge the death of Amrod in any way. I think admitting he killed his son would be too close to admitting he did wrong, and very out of character.

I did give in on making Maedhros willing to threaten his brothers with major violence, but I think it would be a mistake to write something that would make it look like Feanor has any moral conscience.
Feanor does have a moral conscience. He is not completely evil, there are very few things that are in Tolkien. Feanor is the spirit of fire and had an all consuming passion, whatever he did, he did with all his heart.

Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?

And even Feanor will repent in the end or so the prophecy once said.
Certainly, none of us were actually suggesting that we downplay Fëanor's death. I agree with you that it's very shocking and pivotal, as he has been *the* main character since his birth over a season ago. We merely meant that by having this death happen earlier in the episode, we are not making his death the event that the episode is building towards nor the climax. Therefore, it's about the sons' reaction to the death, not the death itself. Fëanor's death is not the end of the Season nor even the end of the episode - the story continues after he leaves it, and while that doesn't lessen the impact, it does alter the meaning, a bit.

I do like the suggestion that Fëanor has 'last words' for each of his sons. That is a fitting farewell for such a character. And as you point out, that leaves the heir question ambiguous, as he had final words for each of them, not just Maedhros. While Fëanor is not the type to apologize for his actions or unsay anything that he has said, he *could* acknowledge that he's going to see Amrod before any of them do. And that might be as close as he comes to reconciling with Amras at this moment. After that, he can request they reswear the Oath and then die.

We briefly touched on the idea of why Fëanor would heed the summons to the Halls of Mandos, rather than remaining a Houseless spirit. And I think the clear reason is that...his mother and father are there. Finwë and Míriel are in the Halls of Mandos, and so Fëanor will go to them (when he would not heed the summons of a Vala at this time). We don't need a 'Lo, there do I see my father, lo, there do I see my mother...' line from him, but we could capture the idea of that, I think.

I think that we have an opportunity for a meaningful/significant/artsy title for this episode. I had suggested 'Last Light of the Trees' to suggest that while it's the birth of the sun and the moon, it's the death of the Trees and the end of an era in some ways. I modeled that off the novel title 'Last Light of the Sun' by Guy Gavriel Kay. Something like 'Dying Light' would be a double reference to the dying Trees as well as the death of the Spirit of Fire (and I suppose we'd have Hamilcar die at sunset just to round all of this death off nicely). Any other suggestions on how best to capture this?

I think that the Act 3 scene should combine the idea of shock/anger/grief and the idea of 'what do we do now?' The sons of Fëanor should seem rather moorless and at a loss after the loss of their father, and that comes out in the grieving. Maedhros is going to act rather shockingly angry in this scene, almost out of character for someone who has been so level-headed and practical up to this point. That anger is his grief, his being upset about being thrust into his father's role. Curufin's interest is less in 'who is the heir?' and more in 'how do we preserve father's legacy and continue his work?' In other words, he's fine with Maedhros being in charge (for now), but he's not fine with Maedhros changing the rules. I know it will be easy to paint Curufin as a conniving villain. Because, well, he is, a bit. But he's subtle as well, and the emphasis here is on grief. He's not scheming for the throne or anything like that. He's majorly upset over the death of his father, and that's what we want to see. Any grasping from him now would be too much.
I think Curufin should be calm and collected except for two moments: one when his father dies and the second is when Dior kills Celegorm. In those two moments, especially the latter he should be completely broken.

Like with Feanor, Curufin is not just a monster, we are told his the only one of the Noldor at the time to win the FRIENDSHIP of the dwarves (ironically Celebrimbor will do the same). He seems devoted to his brother Celegorm as well.

We have several more seasons to show villainy of Feanor's Sons. I think the death of their father should focus more on their grief.

I would argue, we should make it heart wrenching for the audience to see Feanor's Sons in such pain.

EDIT

I don't mind Maedhros reaching for the hilt of his sword. He is a guy, who is going to slaughter innocent refugees before it's all said and done. The same way Curufin is not a devil, Maedhros is not a saint.
 
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Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Yes Feanor is capable of loving his father and sons. He's not Eol. But that isn't the same as being willing to admit he has ever done anything wrong. He never does so until the end of time, and then only in a prophecy which Tolkien rejected and got rid of in his later writing. Showing Feanor admitting any fault would be very out of character.

If he admits that he killed Amrod, then he is admitting that he has done something wrong and is showing remorse. But Feanor is depicted everywhere by Tolkien as possessing no remorse for anything. We have already shown him (in Ep 8) blaming Amrod for his own death and showing no remorse at all.

I don't mind Maedhros reaching for the hilt of his sword. He is a guy, who is going to slaughter innocent refugees before it's all said and done. The same way Curufin is not a devil, Maedhros is not a saint.
He's not, but my objection is that he's not evil enough to murder his brothers in cold blood.


Edit: And I just realized that we left out the part where Feanor curses the name of Morgoth 3 times before he makes his sons repeat the Oath. May I put that in?
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Okay, so now his death scene is:
  • Stop the healer
  • Words for each of the 6 sons
  • Curse Morgoth 3 times
  • Recitation of the Oath (Amras abstains)
  • Feanor's body bursts into flames and wind blows the ashes westward.

I agree, Feanor will not apologize nor admit guilt in this scene. That does not mean that he cannot refer to Amrod's death in some way. The fact that Amrod is dead and in the halls of Mandos is just that...the current situation. Feanor's refusal to apologize for his role in Am rod's death (or even acknowledge it) could be part of what drives Amras to refuse his father's dying wish.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I agree, Feanor will not apologize nor admit guilt in this scene. That does not mean that he cannot refer to Amrod's death in some way. The fact that Amrod is dead and in the halls of Mandos is just that...the current situation.
I'm having trouble imagining how to do that without implying remorse/apology/guilt. What words would he use? Brainstorming... Would he state again that Amrod is entirely to blame for his own death? Or imply that whatever he says to Amrod in Mandos will be angry reproaches for disobeying his father? Or call Amrod the son who failed their mission?
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I just imagine that he would say that he is going to see Miriel, and Finwe...and Amrod. Acknowledging that his son is dead is something he has already done and I see nothing wrong with him doing it again. He doesn't want to talk about the shipburning, and so...he won't.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I'm having trouble imagining how to do that without implying remorse/apology/guilt. What words would he use? Brainstorming... Would he state again that Amrod is entirely to blame for his own death? Or imply that whatever he says to Amrod in Mandos will be angry reproaches for disobeying his father? Or call Amrod the son who failed their mission?
I don't think that mentioning that he will see Amrod soon necessitates acceptance of guilt.
 

cellardur

Active Member
MithLuin has answered exactly how I think it could be done.

As for Maedhros I think it could work, because he is incredibly emotional at this moment, probably more emotional than he will be until his death. I also think placing a hand on the hilt is a step away from drawing the blade. I think drawing his sword would be going too far.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
During the script review, we discussed visuals for the depiction of the death of Fëanor, and ways in which we could show his body consumed by light/fire at the moment of his death.

We mentioned visuals from the show Supernatural, and I figured I'd give some example clips here of different things they've done with bodies dying/exploding with light. Obviously, the intent is not to copy any of these, just to have examples of what can be done with special effects for this sort of thing.

Example 1: Castiel returns the souls to purgatory. Go to the 1 minute mark on this clip:

Example 2: A ghost being destroyed when its bones are burned. (First 20 seconds)

Example 3: A ghost vanishing in a more 'walk towards the light' scene. Go to the 6:07 minute mark on this terrible quality clip (Sorry; it's someone with a shaky cam pointed at their TV).

Example 4: Alistair tries to exorcise an angel from his vessel. Go to the 2:19 mark on this clip. (Also at 4:07, you get the death of a demon lit up from the inside)

Example 5: An angel inhabits a vessel

Example 6: An angel dies. An archangel shows up. Go to the 3:11 mark on this clip:

Example 7: Nephilim possession (@ 3:14) and lots of destruction. Multiple examples here starting at 0:50 (also spoilers for Season 12)

Example 8: Angel possession

Example 9: Rowena tries to kill people with witchcraft, which happens to look like purple glowy lights. (1:30 & 3:06)

Example 10: Lucifer uses a 'hand of God' weapon (2:04 in this clip)

Example 11: Angel grace (1:02-1:24)

Example 12: Death of the Demon Abbadon (2:30 clip)

Example 13: Archangel kills angel - maybe the best example from this show of someone welling up with light from the inside and then bursting into flame. 25 seconds into the clip

Personally, I think you can do a version of light welling up from within someone before you set the body on fire with actual flames. That should help to keep it from looking like the balrogs did it. And the light could look a bit reddish if we wanted it to; it doesn't have to be pure white light.
 
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Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Thanks for posting those. I tried to find some relevant Babylon 5 clips, but couldn't find videos of the scenes I wanted to show.

Light welling up just before bursting into flames sounds good.

Example 4: Alistair tries to exorcise an angel from his vessel. Go to the 1:19 mark on this clip:
Actually 2:19
 
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